Jude 2

My advice to small churches: specialize.

(Hey: rate it, even if you hate it, and leave a comment on YouTube!)

Gary,
How large is your church getting these days?

A scalpel can be more effective in a targeted situation... than a shot gun blast to nowhere. But it requires VISION.


How I heard the Economy stimulus package explained and it could be applied to an ineffective Church. It's like a huge fire raging in a city and yet everyone is BLIND to where it is. They firefighters pump tons of water in all directions.. HOPING on extinguishing the REAL FIRE raging and destroying everything in it's path. AND when they fail to stop to fire by shooting in random patterns.... continue pumping water into the street.. in hopes that it will flood the area and find the fire and extinguish.

Very Good Analogy, I thought.

Mike Vande wrote:Gary,
How large is your church getting these days?

Mike, that's an excellent question that I never know how to answer.
Back when I was a kid, in the 1950s and 60s that was a really easy question to answer, because every church had one of these...


If you wanted to know how large your church was, you looked at the "Average Attendance" posted on the wall. It's just so much more complicated now, and not nearly so black and white.

First, we don't really have Sunday School any more. (Sorry, but it's true.)

Do we just count our Sunday Morning Worship attendance? (We really only count heads about once every 6 or 8 weeks, if at all.)

Do we count all the uStream views of our weekly webcast services? We have now 69 weeks of archived service videos there, and some get hundreds of views.

Do we count all those who watch the rebroadcasts of our services at 6:00 AM each Sunday? I have zero way of quantifying that number, but I am running into people in the mall, and in Walmart who stop me and tell me they recognize me from the TV show. My daughter works in the speech lab at her college, and two surfer dudes came in to tape a project, and noticed her last name on the sign on the door. They said, "Hey, is your dad Pastor Gary? We see him on TV."

Do we count those who tithe and contribute to our church, even though they live on the mainland and most have never/will never set foot inside our services?

Do we count those who consider us their "other church?" They attend our youth, or a Bible study at Starbucks, but also attend another church.

Do we count those who call me their pastor, but never attend? They call us only when somebody is in the hospital, or when somebody dies and they need a pastor for the funeral, or they need a baby dedicated, or a family wedding officiated.

That's a lot of hot air to not give you a direct answer, but I really don't have a direct answer.

Pastor Gary wrote:

Mike Vande wrote:Gary,
How large is your church getting these days?

Mike, that's an excellent question that I never know how to answer.
Back when I was a kid, in the 1950s and 60s that was a really easy question to answer, because every church had one of these...


If you wanted to know how large your church was, you looked at the "Average Attendance" posted on the wall. It's just so much more complicated now, and not nearly so black and white.

First, we don't really have Sunday School any more. (Sorry, but it's true.)

Do we just count our Sunday Morning Worship attendance? (We really only count heads about once every 6 or 8 weeks, if at all.)

Do we count all the uStream views of our weekly webcast services? We have now 69 weeks of archived service videos there, and some get hundreds of views.

Do we count all those who watch the rebroadcasts of our services at 6:00 AM each Sunday? I have zero way of quantifying that number, but I am running into people in the mall, and in Walmart who stop me and tell me they recognize me from the TV show. My daughter works in the speech lab at her college, and two surfer dudes came in to tape a project, and noticed her last name on the sign on the door. They said, "Hey, is your dad Pastor Gary? We see him on TV."

Do we count those who tithe and contribute to our church, even though they live on the mainland and most have never/will never set foot inside our services?

Do we count those who consider us their "other church?" They attend our youth, or a Bible study at Starbucks, but also attend another church.

Do we count those who call me their pastor, but never attend? They call us only when somebody is in the hospital, or when somebody dies and they need a pastor for the funeral, or they need a baby dedicated, or a family wedding officiated.

That's a lot of hot air to not give you a direct answer, but I really don't have a direct answer.

the easiest way is to tell on average how many attend your local church, I thought that was point of his question...

one love wrote:the easiest way is to tell on average how many attend your local church, I thought that was point of his question...

I understand, and my response to that is that "on average how many attend your local church" was the easiest way half a century ago, but it no longer accurately reflects the nature of 21st Century church size. (Unless one's church is still living in the world of the 1950s and 60s and doing things the way they were done then.)

I had to do a google search for a picture of that attendance board and and found it, appropriately, in a MUSEUM site, but if I were a betting man I'd bet that there are people on Jude2 who attend churches where they still have somebody come up each week and read off "Class #1 had 6 present, 2 absent, and no visitors, and $3.28 in the offering; class #2 had..." and they are puzzled by their lack of growth.

Pastor Gary wrote:

one love wrote:the easiest way is to tell on average how many attend your local church, I thought that was point of his question...

I understand, and my response to that is that "on average how many attend your local church" was the easiest way half a century ago, but it no longer accurately reflects the nature of 21st Century church size. (Unless one's church is still living in the world of the 1950s and 60s and doing things the way they were done then.)

I had to do a google search for a picture of that attendance board and and found it, appropriately, in a MUSEUM site, but if I were a betting man I'd bet that there are people on Jude2 who attend churches where they still have somebody come up each week and read off "Class #1 had 6 present, 2 absent, and no visitors, and $3.28 in the offering; class #2 had..." and they are puzzled by their lack of growth.

PG come on are you really implying you have NO idea how many hear you preach in your physical Local church on average? That has nothing to do with growth. My sister can tell me how many attend her church and they have 6000 members, NOT counting his television audience around the world. It is just a question of how many are attending locally, If you dont know then fine, I would say you dont know if you have any growth at all then

I'm probably more intersted in how many empty seats you have after the service starts. Is it getting tight or is there a lot of space between the heads?

Pastor Gary wrote:a MUSEUM site, but if I were a betting man I'd bet that there are people on Jude2 who attend churches where they still have somebody come up each week and read off "Class #1 had 6 present, 2 absent, and no visitors, and $3.28 in the offering; class #2 had..." and they are puzzled by their lack of growth.

Hummm. MUSEUM. Interesting use of that word. Kind of like a club paying dues for services rendered?

Remember even a MUSEUM can fail to become relevant in it's culture too and can perish like the past it represents.

I liked it. The music was distracting for me, though. I don't know what I'd suggest for an alternative background music, but it just didn't fit -- for me.

Mike Vande wrote:I'm probably oless intersted in a after the service starts. Is it getting tight or is there a lot of space between the heads?

It is inconsistent... couple of hundred at the top, 80-ish at the bottom. We will lose a bunch of Marines this week leaving for deployment, but we have a steady stream of new faces. I believe we are in another growth period, as the young adults ministry has just relaunched under new (very experienced) management, a men's group just launched, several new Bible studies have started/are starting, and we are focused this month on rounding up strays and people who have fallen through the cracks, and it seems to be working.

one love wrote: PG come on are you really implying you have NO idea how many hear you preach in your physical Local church on average?

No. I am suggesting that the kind of thinking that limits the impact and footprint of a local ministry to a headcount of Sunday attenders is missing the point.

one love wrote:That has nothing to do with growth. My sister can tell me how many attend her church and they have 6000 members, NOT counting his television audience around the world. It is just a question of how many are attending locally, If you dont know then fine, I would say you dont know if you have any growth at all then

I answered that question in this thread in a response to Mike. I know that some churches, large and small, are really anal about headcounts, records of attendance, and such... but I am not. Ask any of the dozen or so people who attend our Staff Meetings - we seldom even mention how many attend or what is being donated; our emphasis is upon spiritual growth, outreach and long-range development, and at least half of each meeting is prayer.

PG wrote:

I answered that question in this thread in a response to Mike. I know that some churches, large and small, are really anal about headcounts, records of attendance, and such... but I am not. Ask any of the dozen or so people who attend our Staff Meetings - we seldom even mention how many attend or what is being donated; our emphasis is upon spiritual growth, outreach and long-range development, and at least half of each meeting is prayer.

Well if you are not concerned with how many new people are coming how would you know if you are being effective, that was my point. Also you mentioned spirtual growth , well that includes new converts etc.
It is a question of curiosity on how the Lord may be blessing your church it is not a negative thing to ask you that. The boards may seem archaic to you but many denominations use them and that is not a bad thing. Some keep record of visitors so they can try to get to know them and be a blessing etc.

It is not a negative thing for you to say your average attendance, you are doing good, it seemed as if it was beneath you to give such info (also throwing the board comment in there) That is why I mentioned the other church.

I know churches in the TCOG that use the boards and some that don't. Some that run 100 on average that use it and some that don't. It is preference but ALL pastors for the most part know a basic average of the attendance and you have to know what is being donated even if it is just your clerk etc. (I have no desire to know that info, I ask attendance questions solely to see how things are growing and changed etc.)

I am glad you are doing well and are growing I know how the military can effect the services in deployment times and how hard it also is for the spouse.

I was interested also because I want to visit Hawaii and we don't have a church there I had thought of visiting your church. Sorry if I sounded aggravated, forgive me.

one love wrote:Well if you are not concerned with how many new people are coming how would you know if you are being effective, that was my point.

We are not arguing, BTW... just discussing a theoretical concept. Of course you judge at least superficially how effective the ministry is... and you can't always tell by the numbers. Some really small churches are changing lives and communities.

one love wrote:Also you mentioned spirtual growth , well that includes new converts etc.

Yes. But not all of those conversions happen in church any more. Most of them occur outside and then they come to the church to be taught and discipled.

one love wrote:It is a question of curiosity on how the Lord may be blessing your church it is not a negative thing to ask you that.

I understand -- and I am not upset over being asked. Just explaining my different perspective.

one love wrote:The boards may seem archaic to you but many denominations use them and that is not a bad thing. Some keep record of visitors so they can try to get to know them and be a blessing etc.

They don't seem archaic to me... they seem archaic. Period. They are a relic of another era. Sorry if that is offensive, but, as I pointed out, I found that photo on a museum site... a place where they display artifacts of bygone days. Don't get me started on the subject of "VISITORS." I tend to rant at the use of that word.

one love wrote:It is not a negative thing for you to say your average attendance, you are doing good, it seemed as if it was beneath you to give such info (also throwing the board comment in there) That is why I mentioned the other church.

Okay.

one love wrote:I know churches in the TCOG that use the boards and some that don't. Some that run 100 on average that use it and some that don't.

Okay. (Neither of us, regardless of our beliefs, would describe TCOG as cutting-edge. The most progressive TCOG would be fairly conservative and traditional by current standards -- and I truly do not mean that in any way to be an insult, only an observation.)

one love wrote:It is preference but ALL pastors for the most part know a basic average of the attendance and you have to know what is being donated even if it is just your clerk etc. (I have no desire to know that info, I ask attendance questions solely to see how things are growing and changed etc.)

Truth: I couldn't even guess +/- 40 how many we had last Sunday, or the 10 Sundays before that. The crowd seemed a bit up last week... and I noticed a few who hadn't been there recently were back. But a crowd estimate? I have no idea, and I seldom make it down to Childrens' Church, where we usually have maybe 50+ with Staff and kids combined.

Financially: I have zero idea how much money was received in the offering. I NEVER look at the books, and I never ask who gave what. Ever. I sign checks to pay bills. Somebody else makes sure there are funds to write those checks. I am a pastor, not a manager.

one love wrote:I am glad you are doing well and are growing I know how the military can effect the services in deployment times and how hard it also is for the spouse.

Yes, it is.

one love wrote:I was interested also because I want to visit Hawaii and we don't have a church there I had thought of visiting your church. Sorry if I sounded aggravated, forgive me.

We would LOVE to have you drop in on our church.

Pastor Gary wrote:

one love wrote:Well if you are not concerned with how many new people are coming how would you know if you are being effective, that was my point.

We are not arguing, BTW... just discussing a theoretical concept. Of course you judge at least superficially how effective the ministry is... and you can't always tell by the numbers. Some really small churches are changing lives and communities.

one love wrote:Also you mentioned spirtual growth , well that includes new converts etc.

Yes. But not all of those conversions happen in church any more. Most of them occur outside and then they come to the church to be taught and discipled.

one love wrote:It is a question of curiosity on how the Lord may be blessing your church it is not a negative thing to ask you that.

I understand -- and I am not upset over being asked. Just explaining my different perspective.

one love wrote:The boards may seem archaic to you but many denominations use them and that is not a bad thing. Some keep record of visitors so they can try to get to know them and be a blessing etc.

They don't seem archaic to me... they seem archaic. Period. They are a relic of another era. Sorry if that is offensive, but, as I pointed out, I found that photo on a museum site... a place where they display artifacts of bygone days. Don't get me started on the subject of "VISITORS." I tend to rant at the use of that word.

one love wrote:It is not a negative thing for you to say your average attendance, you are doing good, it seemed as if it was beneath you to give such info (also throwing the board comment in there) That is why I mentioned the other church.

Okay.

one love wrote:I know churches in the TCOG that use the boards and some that don't. Some that run 100 on average that use it and some that don't.

Okay. (Neither of us, regardless of our beliefs, would describe TCOG as cutting-edge. The most progressive TCOG would be fairly conservative and traditional by current standards -- and I truly do not mean that in any way to be an insult, only an observation.)

one love wrote:It is preference but ALL pastors for the most part know a basic average of the attendance and you have to know what is being donated even if it is just your clerk etc. (I have no desire to know that info, I ask attendance questions solely to see how things are growing and changed etc.)

Truth: I couldn't even guess +/- 40 how many we had last Sunday, or the 10 Sundays before that. The crowd seemed a bit up last week... and I noticed a few who hadn't been there recently were back. But a crowd estimate? I have no idea, and I seldom make it down to Childrens' Church, where we usually have maybe 50+ with Staff and kids combined.

Financially: I have zero idea how much money was received in the offering. I NEVER look at the books, and I never ask who gave what. Ever. I sign checks to pay bills. Somebody else makes sure there are funds to write those checks. I am a pastor, not a manager.

one love wrote:I am glad you are doing well and are growing I know how the military can effect the services in deployment times and how hard it also is for the spouse.

Yes, it is.

one love wrote:I was interested also because I want to visit Hawaii and we don't have a church there I had thought of visiting your church. Sorry if I sounded aggravated, forgive me.

We would LOVE to have you drop in on our church.

I thank you for your reply. I am the one person that agrees numbers dont mean that you are not impacting a community I get that 1oo%.

Now if by cutting edge you mean a change of teachings no we are not on the new light message or strobe lights, smoke, mosh pits etc. (that is not meant as a insult either nor am I implying that your church has or does not have all these things) but by technology there are churches in TCOG that you would be very surprised at what they do. I dont know what you do more then some of the churches in the TCOG that would be more cutting edge unless it was related to my above statement. Many have the music on screens and not just the blue book, record there services etc. We have been doing much better on Technology the past few years, some more then others. Now we dont have credit card machines for many reasons but not a lack of wanting technology. BTW I did not take this post as a insult at all but would love to know what "cutting edge" things you are doing that relates to that statement.

I appreciate the gracious comment regarding our possible visit.

God Bless