Jude 2

JohnDB said:

OH Yeah...
I am going to somewhat agree with Rambopreacher here...

Smoking isn't directly prohibited...some people take it to be a sin.

I do see more people guilty of overeating than I do smoking anyway...which is gluttony.

Where smoking might possibly be a sin it would have to be a mild one if it were one at all...but the condemnation of a "smoker" is definately the biggest sin of all and directly spoken of and prohibited in the Bible.

Can you explain further the emphasized? I am not sure I understand what it is that you are explaining?

Smoking a sin? Nope. Unhealthy yes, but not a sin.

It is my understanding that Paul was dealing, at least in part, with the subject of addiction, when he said, “All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body” (1 Cor. 6:12-13).

So, would I get all bent out of shape and condemnatory to hear or see a brother smoking a cigar to celebrate a birth? No. Not even to hear that he had "a cigarette."

If it turned out that the brother had become a habitual smoker, then he must be considered "in a fault," and I should go to him. Not the fault of smoking, mind you, but of submitting his body to the power of tobacco.

Yes, gluttony is sin, as is drunkenness, both of which are the result of over-indulgence.

As to the idea that Paul was telling Timothy to "drink a little sweet, watered-down, slightly ripe grape juice for your stomach's sake," that is just ridiculous. It was not the 'alcohol content by volume,' but the excessive drinking of wine that Paul spoke against, (And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess - Eph. 5:18); and against its habitual use
(to bishops, he said, "...not given to wine." Lit. "not drunken." To the deacons and elder women, he said, "... Not given to much wine..." Gr. μη οινω πολλω δεδουλωμενας -- lit. "not to become a servant to much wine.")

Again it is drunkennes and submission to the power of another that is spoken against, not the, in this case, alcohol (or tobacco) per se.

Well said bibleguy...

Actually....

If you would study history, not Websters....Simple overeating is not gluttony. Obesity is not gluttony (a side-effect perhaps, but not the actual sin.) The sin of gluttony can also have nothing to do with eating. You probably have never met an actual glutton in person Unless...you watched one on TBN. Ha! Gluttony is a deliberate, pernicious act. I could give you the thesis, but then ya'll would lose the joy of studying the subject for yourself.

Several years ago, my wife bought me a pipe and accessories. For all my life, I have simply loved the aroma of a good pipe tobacco. It is the only tobacco, IMO, with a good aroma. So, I started smoking it on occasion. Twice, I started on longer periods of regular, daily use. Each time I did that, as much as I liked it, I just decided after a 2 or 3 months that it was time to stop, and I did. I just put it down. No withdrawals, nothing beyond a mere "hankering" for it, and when the times rolled around that I'd normally do it, I reminded myself, "Your brain is telling you it's a good time to load a bowl of cavendish. Remember, the taste you have for it is not an impulse to do it, but just a kind of scab from stopping what had become a habit. Don't pick it up this time, it isn't good for you, and next time you'll have a little less of a 'scab' to deal with." Within 3, 4 days, I'd forgotten about it.

Will I do it again? Possibly, but right now I doubt it. When cold weather rolls around, I am more likely to pick it up for some reason, but it may be 1 or 2 more years before I do. I might smoke it once or twice then, as I have done, and not even pick it up for 6 or 8 months after that. Or, I may never do it again at all. I don't give it that much thought, honestly, but after my father died a few weeks ago, I've noticed my blood pressure is running way higher for some reason (headaches, nausea), and I'm more aware of that because of his problems. With that, I doubt I'll even smoke a pipe casually again.

Now, food? Another story and much more serious for me. I've got to make some adjustments. I'll be 42 on Sunday, and my body ain't what it used to be. I'm slower, less energetic, heavier, and with back problems and all, it's just time to make some changes in the ol' diet. Having a sausage and biscuit every morning now is no help.

So, tell me, honestly, which is the worse for me? And, I'm asking for your thoughts and opening myself up a little for the sake of being an example to argue over but tell me honestly where you would find a fault in me. And, I won't even argue back. I'll just let you consider me a hypothetical case and play with the facts and discuss it.

dolfan....I find no fault at all.

What I see is a logical man making good choices......great example. We all need to take a lesson from you in applying logic instead of the need to appear righteous.

I know that a beer would not hurt me....and my dr. said a glass of wine each night would be good for me..... I could use that to my advantage, but I also came from two generations of alcoholics.....I don't think I am going to give myself a reason to put myself into a very vulnerable position. So, it's not a matter of "biblical persuasion" to not drink....it is logic.

I think we are all aware that "common sense" isn't so common.

Dr. Ron wrote: my dr. said a glass of wine each night would be good for me

My Dr. has told me the same thing. I must confess I have thought about it, but have not acted on it.

I think one thing we forget in these discussions is that God deals with us individually as well. If you can find it spelled out exactly in scripture, then call it sin. If not we need to be careful.

There are some things God may lead one person away from, but not necessarily be true for all, so is that sin to go against something God told you to do, technically yes, for you, but the same thing may not be true for someone else who God has not required such.

We all would agree that God told Sampson (and his parents) that he should not cut his hair, but I'd say most of us haven't followed that one personally have we? And most of us would say we don't need to, that was personally for Sampson.

Why would that be impossible today? I know one woman who personally will not wear jewelry, she doesn't teach against it, has no problem with others wearing it, and she isn't from the CoGoP when it was taught as wrong, but she loved it, she treasured it, and God called her on it one day when her toddler tried climbing her jewelry box and it fell on him. She rushed in and quickly started to gather up her treasure when she realized her son was there scared, and she hadn't even check to see if he was hurt or comforted him. Her priorities were wrong, and that was something she put out of her life to change that. That does not mean someone else whose priorities are in balance would need to make the same stand, but for her that was something that she felt she must do for God.

We need to understand that there is sin that is universal, and then there are things God requires of us personally, some may not consider those sin, or on the same level as other sins, but I think we all agree it's best to obey God in all things. It's just also important to recognize that it's not for us to push those personal requirements to others.

For me, the issues on drinking and smoking are more of an obedience issue rather than a black and white sin issue. While I dont think an occassional indulgence is sinful (as was the case with dolfan's post) I do feel that if God is convicting the indivual not not, then they shouldnt.

Dr Ron, may I suggest a good Pinot Noir to go along with your dr's recommendation.

Well, I smelled a friend's wine the other day and it smelled like what my mom used to put on me to get rid of chiggers.

It smelled like "cole oil".....just can't get past that smell.....sorry....

No!

Shoot. I'm so ignorant. What was I thinking?!?! You guys are right. Smoking ain't sinful. Not in the least. It glorifies God. It honors Him. It's edifying to us mentally, physically, and spiritually. It's not defiling or destructive. If Jesus were here he'd light 'em up even! What was I thinking?!?!

Well I think we all would agree that smoking and drinking are addictions.

God calls us to be seperate from the world in that we are in control not our bodies(flesh). At some point smoking and drinking we would become addicted and lose that control.

Hebrews 12:1 "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"
Romans 7:15-25 "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

Kinded play with fire you are going to get burned

RamboPreacher
Anytime someone judges another it is a sin. Judging another person's passion for Christ because they do "this" or don't do "that" is most definately a sin. It is the taking of a job or role that no one on earth has. It is also touching that which belongs to God. God is always most zealous for those things which are his. Anyone who touched the Ark of the Covenant and was not allowed to died. There was a period of time when the High Priest kept dieing year after year on Atonement Day in Israel...

It is the attitude of pride and not humility that God thinks of as the most offensive.

If you don't like the smell of a smoker...ok...I can understand that and I think God can as well...so don't hang around them so close as to catch their odor...but to say that they aren't "Christian enough" or Holy enough to hang around simply because they smoke...might as well out pick your own corner in hell to reside. Jesus regularly attacked the Pharisees in Israel for their legalisms and condemnation of breaking the Law...and they were considered the most liberal of all the political/religious parties in existance...never mind the Sadduccees or Essenes or Zealot or....(there were a bunch of them)

This isn't to say though that a regular adulterer, drug pusher, fornicater, homosexual, lier, theif, or blasphemer should be thought of as a devout person. Their actions and fruit go far beyond what is any form of lovingkindness behavior. Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is one..."You will know them by their fruits"