Seeking counsel regarding the Pledge of Allegiance

[Tim Elston]

I was invited by a work colleague to join the Rotary Club today, which is a civic service organization. It would be a good social and volunteer organization for me.

My colleague said that at every meeting they say the Pledge of Allegiance. I have not said the Pledge of Allegiance since I was in my mid twenties. I effectively became a conscientious objector to saying it because it seemed wrong to pledge allegiance to anything mutable without an expression of conditionality. I could pledge allegiance to liberty and justice, but I could not pledge allegiance to the Republic for which the Flag stands, because the Republic is not immutably worthy of allegiance. There are conceivably many circumstances in which my allegiance would have to be to a principle that the Republic is breaking.

I remember having disagreements with my Overseer John Doroshuk over this when I was serving as a minister under his oversight. I served in the Air Force and had no problem saluting or standing at attention to pay respect to the Flag, to show pride at being an American, and to honor those who gave their lives for the principles of liberty and justice in our country's name. The few times I have been to baseball games I have stood and put my hand on my heart, but I have not been able to bring myself to pledge my allegiance to anything as fraught with injustice as a Republic is.

I want to join the Rotary Club, but I can't conscientiously utter the Pledge of Allegiance. I thought about the tack of being up front with the Club about my conscientious objection, but I doubt that many in such a group would be prone to sympathize with my conscience. This is a Pledge that I could take, but unfortunately it is not our nation's pledge:

I pledge allegience to Justice and Liberty
For which the Flag of the Republic stands,
And to uphold these principles for All
As a citizen of the United States of America.

[dolfan]

I don't know what to advise. The Republic as framed by the founders I can pledge allegiance to. The Republic as recast and seized by those in power today? Nope. Won't do it. And, I'm no longer willing to pretend and hope for the best about it's future. If you can subjectively think of the Republic as an ideal, and the flag as a symbol of that Republic in particular, at least in my view it would be doable to pledge allegiance to it. That's a huge suspension of disbelief. I don't know that you're wired up for that.

[Tim Elston]

I don't know what to advise. The Republic as framed by the founders I can pledge allegiance to. The Republic as recast and seized by those in power today? Nope. Won't do it. And, I'm no longer willing to pretend and hope for the best about it's future. If you can subjectively think of the Republic as an ideal, and the flag as a symbol of that Republic in particular, at least in my view it would be doable to pledge allegiance to it. That's a huge suspension of disbelief. I don't know that you're wired up for that.

It's nice to be known. When someone can see my wiring, there is solace in that.

In retrospect, though, would you have to abstract the original Republic away from its injustice to blacks and American Indians in order to pledge allegiance to it? For me, the problem is the same both then and now. The Republic must needs have always been, and must needs always be, in allegiance to Justice and Liberty, but it never has been, without deficiency. Dare it have asked my allegiance to its treachery, even then?

[dolfan]

The Founders and Framers were no angels. They were as subject to moral reprehensibility as leaders today prove to be. I'm under no illusions about them. But, concerning the role of government in the lives of free people, they set about a certain way of ordering this nation and that way is, in my view, worth my allegiance insofar as it is worth anything. That way doesn't require me to continue or condone the moral failures of those who forged this nation's early years, nor does it suggest that I should minimize the suffering of those who suffered at the hands of the greedy, corrupt, immoral and heartless (nor that I heroize those who act so). There is, though, a place and domain to exercise justice and equity: the church of Jesus. It isn't the only place where those may be found; it is the only place where they have the potential for perfection. If I didn't believe that, I dont think I could call myself Christian at all. Fortunately for me, my imperfect allegiance to an inherently imperfect Republic (or the imperfect ideal of it) does not require me to believe that the justice or equity it might demonstrate are perfect, either. In fact, we both know better.

Seems to me that, to your way of thinking, allegiance must be a perfect thing itself. I don't know how to conceptualize that in terms of allegiance to any Republic; I don't know how to live it yet in terms of the church, either, evidently --- but if anyone reading this knows someone who is, please give me their number.

[Tim Elston]

Fortunately for me, my imperfect allegiance to an inherently imperfect Republic (or the imperfect ideal of it) does not require me to believe that the justice or equity it might demonstrate are perfect, either. In fact, we both know better.

Seems to me that, to your way of thinking, allegiance must be a perfect thing itself. I don't know how to conceptualize that in terms of allegiance to any Republic; I don't know how to live it yet in terms of the church, either, evidently.

This is a profound conundrum. Reality belies language, but language is all we have, for with it we express hope for that which lies outside our reach. "For hope that is not hope, why do we yet hope for it?" We are constrained to love justice, but we are left either to pledge allegiance meaningfully to what is, and can only be, imperfect or to become paralyzed at being human. This is an inescapable treachery. And Christian hope does not escape it, for hope, by definition, as Paul said, is not hoped for if it is actualized. We are left to hope, to pledge allegiance to treacherous things, or else to live and die at conflict with our very self--that is, selfishly.

To pledge or not to pledge? That is not the Rotary Club, but the club that beats the overly conscientious.

[scooter]

I think you could say it if you framed it like I do.

I have rights that allow me room to disagree with practices or policies and even to protest.

America is many things to many people. Opportunity, freedom, liberty, justice all are beautiful but each also hold side notes.

I have not had all the opportunity that a minority might. I don't feel free having to work past April to pay the government today's due. I feel like the justice system is in dire need of a divine healing. Yet with all these disagreements the America that I love is worth pledging to. I pledge to the America that I see in possibility.

If the Chinese invaded Califorinia, so what.

However if they got through Nevada I would physically offer defense of my homeland. To me that is more than pledging words.

So if I would "pledge" my life how much more would I say the pledge.

Anyway that's the way I look at it.

[Tim Elston]

Anyway that's the way I look at it.

Thanks, Scooter. When I woke up this morning, the first thing I thought of was the marriage vow. (It didn't hurt that I had dreamed about the beautiful blonde who smiled at me on the sidewalk yesterday.) The traditional version says, "in sickness and in health, for better or for worse," etc. But it doesn't say, "in criminality, or law-abidingness, in whoredom or in fidelity." There are implied conditions to the vow. (That is, it comes down to, "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours"--if I ever get married I'm going to add that, for honesty's sake. LOL) I'll have to think about this more. What it seems to come down to is, Say it out of one side of my mouth. Not sure I'm comfortable with that.