Jude 2

Was it hypocrisy for some CoGoPers to preach the traditional message throughout the 70's and 80's the whole while not believing it and wanting/pushing for change?

I'll name drop.... Billy Murray

I don't see it happening that way at all. I think they preached what they knew and as their understanding began to change, so did their preaching. I heard A.J. Coulter (I think it was A.J....maybe scooter can help here) say that he had never preached anything that he didn't believe, but he had preached things he'd never preach again.

No, what I saw happening was change being preached but nothing changing right away.

FQ,

If one teaches something one believes is wrong, the very least is that person is a hypocrite.

If I preach or teach something that I know is wrong, then I am not only a hypocrite, but I am also a lier and deciever!

my .02
RuSKY

FQ, I don't think you phrased this just exactly the way it needed to be.

It is not hipocrisy to preach what you have been taught. It is natural to do that. It is when you finally get "Light" on something, and continue to preach it the old way, then it becomes hypocrisy. I am a living testament to that.

I preached what I was taught until I decided to do more study and gained some wisdom of my own. Harrison Price taught me about the Body of Christ. I sat at his feet for years hearing him convince people all over the world that COGOP was the true BOC. I believed him too. I heard DH Queener preach about many things and believed them....he later recanted some of his stand on the exclusive BOC.....

It's just not that easy to judge......

Dr. Ron wrote:FQ, I don't think you phrased this just exactly the way it needed to be.

It is not hipocrisy to preach what you have been taught. It is natural to do that. It is when you finally get "Light" on something, and continue to preach it the old way, then it becomes hypocrisy. I am a living testament to that.

I preached what I was taught until I decided to do more study and gained some wisdom of my own. Harrison Price taught me about the Body of Christ. I sat at his feet for years hearing him convince people all over the world that COGOP was the true BOC. I believed him too. I heard DH Queener preach about many things and believed them....he later recanted some of his stand on the exclusive BOC.....

It's just not that easy to judge......

I understand what you are saying Dr Ron but I think FQ asked it just right. He is curious that while some were wanting the COGOP to change and did NOT believe it any longer yet were still preaching as if they did, Until it changed. He is referring to anyone that believed it to be false and wanting change but still preached it.

Is that hypocritical?

I am not saying anything either way right now, I am clarifying what he is asking, I know why he is asking that and Understood the question one hundred percent. I may post more later.

And then some simply stayed away from those things in which they believed vs what the church taught.

In which we still have that today. I call it selective preaching.
Over the years I have heard more on tithes than any other sermon

beckrl wrote:And then some simply stayed away from those things in which they believed vs what the church taught.

Bingo! BAck when things were in turmoil, and we were deep in the midst of doctrinal shift and debate, I never preached directly AGAINST the existing church polity, but I did more than one suggest "Here is our official position... I am not sure we have that exactly right..."

I also simply found plenty to preach/teach that was not controversial -- the Bible is FULL of wonderful subject matter!

beckrl wrote:In which we still have that today. I call it selective preaching.
Over the years I have heard more on tithes than any other sermon

How funny. I can hardly think of a topic I have preached on less.

one love wrote:I understand what you are saying Dr Ron but I think FQ asked it just right. He is curious that while some were wanting the COGOP to change and did NOT believe it any longer yet were still preaching as if they did, Until it changed. He is referring to anyone that believed it to be false and wanting change but still preached it.

Is that hypocritical?

I don't think it is. I think leadership is in a position to walk softly at times to keep from offending people beyond the ability to share truth later. For example the issue of circumcision in the Bible: Was it hypocritical for Paul, who correctly believed and taught that true circumcision was of the heart, to go along with those who needed to be circumcised out of tradition for family sake, etc?

pa

pastorables wrote:

one love wrote:I understand what you are saying Dr Ron but I think FQ asked it just right. He is curious that while some were wanting the COGOP to change and did NOT believe it any longer yet were still preaching as if they did, Until it changed. He is referring to anyone that believed it to be false and wanting change but still preached it.

Is that hypocritical?

I don't think it is. I think leadership is in a position to walk softly at times to keep from offending people beyond the ability to share truth later. For example the issue of circumcision in the Bible: Was it hypocritical for Paul, who correctly believed and taught that true circumcision was of the heart, to go along with those who needed to be circumcised out of tradition for family sake, etc?

pa

I hear ya I was just clarifying the question,
Maybe it should have been asked this way if you know something is wrong (or believe it to be wrong) but preach it anyway so not to upset anyone is that right?

I am not insinuating anything here I am clarifying the question just as I understood it. I should stay out of this topic before it is taken the wrong way,

Was it hypocritical for Paul, who correctly believed and taught that true circumcision was of the heart, to go along with those who needed to be circumcised out of tradition for family sake, etc?

No Paul was not a hypocrite but Peter was and Paul called him on it. Peter tried to preach circumcision and the law both ways.

Am I really supposed to believe that many of the CoGoP reformers just woke up one day and started to preach it differently?

I suppose I just think that you should preach what you know to be true and not what people want you to preach. What's the point in that; sounds like a waste of time and breath.

Full Quiver wrote:
Am I really supposed to believe that many of the CoGoP reformers just woke up one day and started to preach it differently?

Are you advocating some kind of conspiracy? I just don't believe that. I believe that God orchestrated many of the changes and that men/women of God had to use wisdom in teaching/preaching concerning them.

For me, God showed me some of the thoughts years before GQ or the White Wing began to shift. I actually was a type of reformer I suppose. I preached a strong "cross" and "kingdom" message that went beyond exclusivity well before the general church.

FQ, I'm not really sure what changes you are specifically referring and I certainly have my own personal convictions regarding various topics, yet I don't preach to cause strife and division.

pa

If a man knows to do good and doeth it not to him it is sin.

On a keyboard at least.

I wish that I could say little questions like these, which are good for nothing but continuing to cause division, didn't frustrate the stew out of me but unfortunately they do.

I can recall my self during the Assembly of 1990 (I think that is the one), being a very steadfast believer that any change would horrible. I remember going back to my local church and doing a 10 week lesson on the advice to members. At that particular time I lived it, believed, and taught it. As one brother use to put it, I would boil the flag and drink the broth.

So then, how did it get to where I am today? Plainly...God put me in a place where I had to open my eyes.

The experience has truly change me, my opinions, my thinking, and even my relationship with God. My change did not come about overnight. While God was leading me to new depth in Him, all I had was what I had known. To me that is what a leader is. One who walks among a congregation and hearing from God and taking them to the next level as God leads you.

To confirm what one other person has already written, yes it was A. J. Coalter that made the statement that he never preached a single word he didn't believe but he had certainly preached many things that he would never preach again. I can honestly say I understand that and whole-heartedly agree with him.

Personally I can also agree with Pastor Gary, there is so much more in the Word to focus on. Messages that would help to bring the Body of Christ together rather than to continually divide. Messages to build rather than destroy.

If we would spend as much time and energy examining our own lives, motives, and accountability to God as we do wondering if this one or that one was a hypocrite and questioning their motives and spiritual lives we would be a brotherhood of ministers that would be much more of a benefit to the Kingdom of God.

I have no doubt that if someone wanted to delve into my life and try to rip me apart they would find something to criticize, question, or even in their opinion be a hypocrite over.

Of course I could then be like the little lady that once told Charles Stanley that she simply could not attend his church because it was full of hypocrites. to which he replied: "Well you can just come right on in dear, we have plenty of room for one more".

Did I really say that?