Jude 2

While watching the responses on the "Faith verses Neglect" thread, I had a few thoughts.

I purposely have not posted on that particular thread because I, like scooter, am torn.

I had a situation where my ten year old child, with absolutely zero medical history of asthma or any breathing problem, came down with a common cold. I noticed one night while she was sleeping, (during this cold), that she seemed to be breathing very deep and quick. Being after hours, I took her to a walk-in pediatric unit. They said she was having a "asthmatic episode" and gave her a breathing treatment. With no history of asthma they said this was probably brought on by the cold and an asthmatic episode was not the same thing as having asthma. With that and seeing that all was well, they sent me home with a suggestion to follow up with my pediatrician.

She was fine after that except for the cold symptoms which cleared up in a day or two. Being a "non-panicker", I saw that she was well and dismissed the episode and did not call the doctor for a follow-up.

Now, A FULL YEAR LATER, (in the same time of year), the same thing happens....cold, breathing funny, (no distress per se) and after hours. Take her in to the same clinic.

I get questioned....Why didn't I do a follow-up last year?

They proceeded to tell me that they would not treat her again if I refused to follow-up with doctor.

BECAUSE it was the second episode and NOW I had a history, I did follow up with a pediatrician. I called my pediatrician the next day and they had already received a call from this separate entity clinic to see if I had followed up because if not, they were calling social services.

NOW, I said all this to say...as a very sane, very stable, loving parent....I made a decision. A decision that I felt was proper, yet it could have backfired on me. Still, it was mine to make. As it turned out, all went well, yet....again, it could have backfired.

So, now I pose a question to all.....

Where do we draw the line at forcing people to get medical help? The movie, "My Sister's Keeper" is out right now. Parents have a child as a "spare part" baby for the older sister that is dying of cancer.

Should I be allowed to take the kidney of my ten year old to give it to her 12 year old sister. What about the ten year old's rights to her own kidney? Do the doctors and her parents have a right to force her to give up her kidney?

I totally would have called for 911 in the situation with the twins born. However, I'm not real comfortable with government deciding when, where, and how we receive help.

why draw a line? because it's easier to preach and teach something definitive, rather than the rhetoric of a relationship? the line for me, is a line that I draw for me. the line I draw for my children is not the same place; I can only perceive their experiences, i can't experience them in equality.

My whole objection is with children under a parents controll.

Allowing a baby to die because of a parents faith is just as EVIL as the crack addict that beats and cigarette burns his toddler to death.

If a person wishes to withold medical treatment for themselves; more power to you.

Shellie, that's a crock what they threatened. At least it would be here in Alabama. That said, you have run smack into the very big-government, nanny state, we'll-oversee-life-from-cradle-to-grave nonsense that we experience in every area of life. None more personal, private and important than raising your kids, though.

Where's the line? There's not one. It will vary in every county and state, and with each situation presented. We have to make reasonable decisions, of course, about our kids. Blue states and counties will lean toward more government interference in those decisions. There is no solution for it. We've talked of slippery slopes; we're well down them now.

If I could formulate a rule on it, though, I'd say that the parent is free to make medical decisions for his/her children, and to refuse care or limit it, so long as the decision is based on facts known to the parent that do not suggest to a reasonable person that their child will suffer undue or permanent harm if help is not sought.

Doctors need to be careful to not interpose themselves in such decisions; if they don't, and I've never really given this any thought until now, their meddling into what the standard of parental care ought to be could result in a lower standard of care being assigned to them. Otherwise, these people at this clinic are assuming that you should know what a doctor knows, and that simply can't be (unless the parent happens to be a doctor). If doctors can involve social services for failure to seek treatment in a matter that wouldn't reasonably lead a person to believe that substantial or permanent harm could result from not getting more care, then perhaps doctors ought to be held to lower malpractice standards when THEY make errors.

Social services, social workers, child welfare people --- all of these get involved and have to investigate any reports made. They'll follow up because they're required to. There are too many instances where follow up has lapsed and kids have died. The policies they follow are less relaxed than they once were. Still, it is the exception to the rule that a parent is deemed unfit or otherwise indicated as an abusive/neglectful parent for failure to provide a certain care in a non-critical case. That's no comfort, of course, to a parent in your situation who gets quizzed by them even though you know you did everything right. It is a tension that probably has no resolution unless we, as a whole society, act to throw off the shackles of government intrusion. We're not going to do that, either. So, my best guess for the future is this kind of stuff will continue.

Shellie wrote:While watching the responses on the "Faith verses Neglect" thread, I had a few thoughts.

I purposely have not posted on that particular thread because I, like scooter, am torn.

I had a situation where my ten year old child, with absolutely zero medical history of asthma or any breathing problem, came down with a common cold. I noticed one night while she was sleeping, (during this cold), that she seemed to be breathing very deep and quick. Being after hours, I took her to a walk-in pediatric unit. They said she was having a "asthmatic episode" and gave her a breathing treatment. With no history of asthma they said this was probably brought on by the cold and an asthmatic episode was not the same thing as having asthma. With that and seeing that all was well, they sent me home with a suggestion to follow up with my pediatrician.

She was fine after that except for the cold symptoms which cleared up in a day or two. Being a "non-panicker", I saw that she was well and dismissed the episode and did not call the doctor for a follow-up.

Now, A FULL YEAR LATER, (in the same time of year), the same thing happens....cold, breathing funny, (no distress per se) and after hours. Take her in to the same clinic.

I get questioned....Why didn't I do a follow-up last year?

They proceeded to tell me that they would not treat her again if I refused to follow-up with doctor.

BECAUSE it was the second episode and NOW I had a history, I did follow up with a pediatrician. I called my pediatrician the next day and they had already received a call from this separate entity clinic to see if I had followed up because if not, they were calling social services.

NOW, I said all this to say...as a very sane, very stable, loving parent....I made a decision. A decision that I felt was proper, yet it could have backfired on me. Still, it was mine to make. As it turned out, all went well, yet....again, it could have backfired.

So, now I pose a question to all.....

Where do we draw the line at forcing people to get medical help? The movie, "My Sister's Keeper" is out right now. Parents have a child as a "spare part" baby for the older sister that is dying of cancer.

Should I be allowed to take the kidney of my ten year old to give it to her 12 year old sister. What about the ten year old's rights to her own kidney? Do the doctors and her parents have a right to force her to give up her kidney?

I totally would have called for 911 in the situation with the twins born. However, I'm not real comfortable with government deciding when, where, and how we receive help.

I completely agree with what you did. I would have done the exact same thing.

Here is the DRASTIC difference.
Their child couldnt breath, needed CPR, they didn't call. What was the difference between THEIR medical interference (CPR) and calling 911???

This act was based up THEIR faith... be it unto YOU according to YOUR faith. HELLO!? If my faith is lacking... I can't allow MY PROBLEM to reflect on someone else. Call it God's will, whatever... God may not have meant for certain people to die. He may have had a purpose for them. But God still allows murder and neglect and suicide. We do have a choice!

And all those women in the room and in that church whining that they have no voice.. HOGWASH! God give you a voice! Use it! We are neither male nor female! The laws of this land also give you 911! They would just have to be ticked off at me!!!

Here is a different scenerio.... Danny falls down the stairs and breaks his neck. He can't move, talk, breath very well... Do I have the right to pray and not call 911 because I have decided my faith dictates that I should have faith to pray?? Ummmmm... NO!!!!!! Why is this baby ANY different!????

You can tell by "blessed" post the warped since of thinking...

The twins were premature. The chance of them living were slimmer then full term.

They KNEW the high risk. They took it. They lost. It is pumped into their brain through their current leadership that WORSE things will happen if you go to the Dr!!! I know! I lived it! I have emails!! I was brain washed! And I STILL to this very day have issues with the crap I endured there.

There's a reason why this happened, she could have went to the hosipital and both babies could have died.

They need to be stopped.

Do we allow the "religious" freedom that dictates that you can kill the infidels??

This child died because of this teaching. They had twin to twin transfusion. A Dr could have told them that and helped where God chose not to. It appears someone lacked faith.

It could have been me... It so could have...

If the doc tells you that one child will die without a kidney and that the other child is a match, and even if it compromises the donor child's life and will not guarantee the life of the sick one...are you wrong not to do it? Most importantly, WILL YOU BE TRIED if you don't and the sick child dies?

I am NO WAY trying to defend this couple. I am heart broken that they did not seek medical attention. I'm not discussing their situation but the situation of who decides.

We have the recent media frenzy about the boy and his parents who decided that they wanted to stop chemo treatments on the boy. The boy was in on the decision and stated that he, too, wanted to stop. The state stepped in and started the process of terminating the parental rights and taking over guardianship to MAKE the boy get chemo. Am I the only one that has trouble with this?

My WHOLE concern is allowing the government to determine when, where, and how a child receives medical help. I just think that when we allow government to decide we are in for a real mess.