Guilty verdict

[Pastor Gary]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,535861,00.html

"A Wisconsin man accused of killing his 11-year-old daughter by praying instead of seeking medical care was found guilty Saturday of second-degree reckless homicide.

Dale Neumann, 47, was convicted in the March 23, 2003, death of his daughter, Madeline, from undiagnosed diabetes. Prosecutors contended he should have rushed the girl to a hospital because she couldn't walk, talk, eat or speak. Instead, Madeline died on the floor of the family's rural Weston home as people surrounded her and prayed. Someone called 911 when she stopped breathing.

Neumann's 41-year-old wife, Leilani, was convicted on the same charge in the spring and is scheduled for sentencing Oct. 6. Both face up to 25 years in prison."

[Poimen]

They are in good company.

Daniel was found guilty and put in the Lion's den.
The three Hebrew boys were found guilty and thrown in the fiery furnace.
Paul was found guilty and had his head removed.
Peter was found guilty and crucified upside down.
Our Lord, was found guiltless, and crucified anyhow.

May God grant them great grace and peace during their hour of tribulation.

[EagerBeaver]

They are in good company.

Daniel was found guilty and put in the Lion's den.
The three Hebrew boys were found guilty and thrown in the fiery furnace.
Paul was found guilty and had his head removed.
Peter was found guilty and crucified upside down.
Our Lord, was found guiltless, and crucified anyhow.

May God grant them great grace and peace during their hour of tribulation.

I can't believe you'd compare a couple people that didn't use God-given wisdom, to biblical prophets and pioneers of the faith. That is an insult to Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, Abed Nego, Paul, Peter and Jesus.

We are to pray, yes, but the Lord has also provided healing in the form of doctors who exercise the brain power He has blessed them with.

I have a real problem with people like this. Throw them in the slammer and throw away the key. I think the state of WI was right because what they did to the kid was downright negligent.

Instead of praying for grace and peace, how about praying for God's mercy upon them for the murder of their child?

[RamboPreacher]

prayer is happening for the family and friends for their loss.

[Full Quiver]

They are in good company.

Daniel was found guilty and put in the Lion's den.
The three Hebrew boys were found guilty and thrown in the fiery furnace.
Paul was found guilty and had his head removed.
Peter was found guilty and crucified upside down.
Our Lord, was found guiltless, and crucified anyhow.

May God grant them great grace and peace during their hour of tribulation.

What a JOKE!!!!

Those men were honoring God and HARMED no one in the process. This is ludicrous and I'm glad you keep running your mouth for all Jude 2 to see.

[ImaPK]

They are in good company.

Daniel was found guilty and put in the Lion's den.
The three Hebrew boys were found guilty and thrown in the fiery furnace.
Paul was found guilty and had his head removed.
Peter was found guilty and crucified upside down.
Our Lord, was found guiltless, and crucified anyhow.

May God grant them great grace and peace during their hour of tribulation.

WOW CHRIS!!! Let me ask you this: You and the wife are walking down the street and a car comes along and the passenger opens up with an automatic weapon striking your wife. Are you gonna pray for her healing or get her to the hospital? If you pray and she dies will you say it was God's will? If you get her to the hospital and the doctors refuse to take the bullet out and she dies will you still say it was God's will? If you pray and she lives was it God's will? If the doctors take the bullet out and she lives was it God's will? God's will covers all of those so by extension it is God's will that the doctors learned what they did in med school.

[pastorables]

Not to take sides on this issue, but has anyone even addressed the issue of ridiculous healthcare costs? My family doesn't have health insurance, thus we find ourselves trusting God to keep us from undesirable circumstances.

We can point fingers all day concerning those who are ridiculous for refraining from the emergency room, but isn't it just as ridiculous for a hospital to charge $50 or more for a $1 pair of latex gloves, etc? To me, this is the real joke. Furthermore, some physicians today are only in the profession for the paycheck, and true patient care is lacking . How does one know which ones to trust? Michael Jackson had a personal physician and we all know how that turned out.

I am not against medical care at all, but many simply do not have the financial ability for this luxury.

As a sidebar, does God only miraculously heal when man isn't available? When my uncle was a child, he drank from a quart jar of coal oil. The family reports that he was literally at the brink of death and the nearest doctor was miles away. God heard the prayers of my grandmother and other family, divinely healed my uncle, and he lives today.

pa

[Pastor Gary]

Not to take sides on this issue, but has anyone even addressed the issue of ridiculous healthcare costs? My family doesn't have health insurance, thus we find ourselves trusting God to keep us from undesirable circumstances.

We can point fingers all day concerning those who are ridiculous for refraining from the emergency room, but isn't it just as ridiculous for a hospital to charge $50 or more for a $1 pair of latex gloves, etc? To me, this is the real joke. Furthermore, some physicians today are only in the profession for the paycheck, and true patient care is lacking . How does one know which ones to trust?

Nobody -- NO-body -- in America is ever turned away from an ER for lack of finances or lack of medical insurance. BY FEDERAL LAW they must be treated.

[EagerBeaver]

I am not against medical care at all, but many simply do not have the financial ability for this luxury.

@pastorables --

This might be a straw man argument, but I think it has some legitimacy: say a family doesn't have the finances for medical treatment, as you say above. But if God didn't heal that person and medical care is their only option, wouldn't it be just as bad to not trust God with one's finances as to "over-trust" Him with healing?

I would think that in such a case, God wouldn't heal simply because one is acting out of fear of the unknown (financial state during and after medical treatment) than truly trusting Him for a miracle. God knows our hearts, though, and only He knows exactly what's up.

The whole issue just stinks to me and is a senseless case of someone who didn't need to die, doing so -- and in an ironic twist of this thing we call life, received their ultimate healing, although the means were unjustifiable.

[Poimen]

Guys I'm not opposing medical care. I am opposing legislating the practice of the Christian faith, both as a whole, and as a personal expression.

I will not condemn those who choose, as an act of faith, to directly trust God for healing -- even in a life or death situation, either their own or those under their care.

I will not add my voice with adversaries to explicit trust in God. I would that my faith were that pure, that devoted, that complete.

Job said "though God slay me, yet will I trust Him."

I believe that this level of devotion is the heart's desire and aim of individuals who refrain from such. Whether you consider that misguided or not does not detract from the fact that they are trusting in God.

I want to trust God that much. So much that I don't want nor need to turn to other sources for what God has readily made available to us by faith.

If I can't trust God that completely (and most of us do not, including myself, just based on our own words here -- ya know "faith without works is dead" and all), if I doubt, then by all means I should get some medical aid -- cause without faith no virtue is gonna flow.

But, if I am willing to trust God absolutely, then I have to also trust Him if the situation does not turn out favorable in natural eyes. And who better to trust? Whose record is more likely to fail? Who knows best?

Besides, when did medical aid become mandatory? Are we already a communist nation, never mind socialism?

Now, if a person was truly negligent, if they opted out of laziness or mere inconvenience to get some form of help or aid for a person in need, then THAT would be depraved. But since when is trusting God negligent? Since when is absolutely trusting God depravity? You mean to tell me you trust doctors MORE than God? So much so that you are ready to condemn and persecute fellow believers whose faith is obviously greater than your own, for accepting the outcome, whatever it is, of total reliance on God's hand and will for life or death?

If one's faith is not worth dying or being reproached for then neither is it worth living for.

What's worse is when fellow believers and members of the body of Christ are the one's reproaching you, biting and devouring one another, for an act of faith -- even if misguided.

And what's worse still, is when men claiming to be called of God to shepherd believers, to feed and care for them, and minister to them, are leading the ravenous pack, with the loudest voices of dissent and vindictiveness.

[Poimen]

Nobody -- NO-body -- in America is ever turned away from an ER for lack of finances or lack of medical insurance. BY FEDERAL LAW they must be treated.

While technically true, there is a whole other side to that coin -- that is a catch 22. I have the credit record to prove it. They don't willingly provide care despite inability to pay -- they bill you and wreck your finances, knowing full well up front you don't have the funds to pay.

[EagerBeaver]

Guys I'm not opposing medical care. I am opposing legislating the practice of the Christian faith, both as a whole, and as a personal expression.

I will not condemn those who choose, as an act of faith, to directly trust God for healing -- even in a life or death situation. I will not add my voicewith advesaries to explicit trust in God. I would that my faith were that pure, that devoted, that complete.

Job said "though God slay me, yet will I trust Him." I believe that this level of devotion is the heart's desire and aim of individuals who refrain from such. Whether you consider that misguided or not does not detract from the fact that they are trusting in God.

I want to trust God that much. So much that I don't want nor need to turn to others for what God has readily made available to us by faith.

If I can't trust God that completely (and most of us do not, including myself, just based on our own words here -- ya know "faith without works is dead" and all), if I doubt, then by all means I should get some medical aid -- cause without faith no virtue is gonna flow.

But, if I am willing to trust God absolutely, then I have to also trust Him if the situation does not turn out favorable in natural eyes. And who better to trust? Whose record is more likely to fail? Who knows best?

Besides, when did medical aid become mandatory? Are we already a communist nation, never mind socialism?

Now, if a person was truly negligent, if they opted out of laziness or mere inconvenience to get some form of help or aid for a person in need, then THAT would be depraved. But since when is trusting God negligent? Since when is absolutely trusting God depravity? You mean to tell me you trust doctors MORE than God? So much so that you are ready to condemn and persecute fellow believers whose faith is obviously greater than your own, for accepting the outcome, whatever it is, of total reliance on God's hand and will for life or death?

If one's faith is not worth dying or being reproached for then neither is it worth living for.

What's worse is when fellow believers and members of the body of Christ are the one's reproaching you, biting and devouring one another, for an act of faith -- even if misguided.

And what's worse, is when men claiming to be called of God to shepherd believers, to feed and care for them, and minister to them, are leading the ravenous pack, with the loudest voices of dissent and vindictiveness.

@Poimen --

Please tell me whether or not you believe modern medical care is a gift from the Lord in that he blessed us with intelligence to be able to develop methods of care and recovery for the ill and physically traumatized.

If you believe so, then has that gift become perverted by human greed? If so, how?

If you believe not, then what would YOU do in such situation as described above, with your own children (hypothetically speaking here)?

[Ilovebigcats]

Not to take sides on this issue, but has anyone even addressed the issue of ridiculous healthcare costs? My family doesn't have health insurance, thus we find ourselves trusting God to keep us from undesirable circumstances.

We can point fingers all day concerning those who are ridiculous for refraining from the emergency room, but isn't it just as ridiculous for a hospital to charge $50 or more for a $1 pair of latex gloves, etc? To me, this is the real joke. Furthermore, some physicians today are only in the profession for the paycheck, and true patient care is lacking . How does one know which ones to trust?

Nobody -- NO-body -- in America is ever turned away from an ER for lack of finances or lack of medical insurance. BY FEDERAL LAW they must be treated.

I have. The Dr is no longer practicing. He now runs his own collection agency.

[Brian]

They are in good company.

Daniel was found guilty and put in the Lion's den.
The three Hebrew boys were found guilty and thrown in the fiery furnace.
Paul was found guilty and had his head removed.
Peter was found guilty and crucified upside down.
Our Lord, was found guiltless, and crucified anyhow.

May God grant them great grace and peace during their hour of tribulation.

Chris, don't you be ashamed for 1 second on your position.
Chris (Brewer) knows, or should well know that you are not against medical care. Come on guys where is your memory!!! I don't follow Jude2 as much as he does and I know for a FACT I have read that you have said you would call the doctor on several cases and that you don't oppose medical care. Chris Brewer, dude, please stop acting like our brother is in support of crazy no doctor types. He is not!

But I will tell you this, if my son who is SEVERLY DISABLED was to stop breathing and become unresponsive my wife, who is a Registered Nurse would try life saving techniques and we would PRAY PRAY PRAY!! Of course we would call 911 but that isn't to say that prayer should take a back seat to medicine and the doctors!! Where has the faith of our christian community gone?? Just because we believe that God has blessed the world with intellegent doctors DOES NOT mean He has stopped healing through the power of prayer.
We all live in this world of uncertainty. None of us know at what precise moment that our situation may take a turn for the worse and medical care may be need to be brought in to interven. At what precise second do you (eagerbeaver) feel is the proper time to ring 911? Nine seconds after a situation starts? Seven seconds? 15? A minute? three?
From what PG said they called 911 when the girl stopped breathing. How in the world were they to know the severety of there daughter and at what presice second they should have called and stopped praying? THEY DIDNT and neither do you.

Man I am sorry this seems so blistering but I am just fed up with people calling good decent God fearing christians MURDERERS!!! Come ON MAN! We are slowly tearing the church apart from the inside out because we want the systems of the world to "lock up and throw away the keys" of our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ!!!

[A2JGirl]

Tomorrow, my husband is going to get up and go to his job. I really wish that we just had a level of faith high enough that we would trust God for our income, so that my husband could devote that time to prayer and Bible study instead. I really admire those that practice their faith like that and don't bend to receiving help from man.