Jude 2

"Anyone who is to find Christ must first find the church. How could anyone know where Christ is and what faith is in him unless he knew where his believers are?"

-- Martin Luther

So I guess that means I Disagree.

Disagree when in the form of an absolute statement.

agree

disagree, as above - as an absolute.

Pastor Gary wrote:"Anyone who is to find Christ must first find the church. How could anyone know where Christ is and what faith is in him unless he knew where his believers are?"

-- Martin Luther

I am going to quote one of my favorite authors. In discussing whether a person can be saved by confessing his sins and have no connection to a local body of believers. He states: " Only God knows; but such salvation lies totally outside the New Testament frame of reference."

He goes on to say: " I get a lot of flack for this view, especially from some in my " revivalist" heritage, and am quotes such text as Rom 10:9, " that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you are saved."

This text, however, presupposes the Christian community as the place where such confessions occurs, at the very least at baptism. The earliest Christians would not have understood a believer whose salvation has not been completed by baptism, which includes identification with both Christ and his people." _ Gordon D. Fee

For me this is the reason we strive so hard to insure every crusade is followed up with pastors from churches. It is vital for the new convert and the one who has been saved for a period of time to be connected with a body of believers.

I'll disagree based on the word "first" Paul himself found Christ BEFORE he found the church, then Christ led him to the church.

Pastor Bill wrote:I'll disagree based on the word "first" Paul himself found Christ BEFORE he found the church, then Christ led him to the church.

I'll disagree...Paul did not find Christ...Christ found Paul walking on the road....

paul wrote:agree

So Paul, you are stating that, If somehow, I was shipwrecked on an
deserted island and through prior knowledge of God's word, I repented of my sin,
accepted Christ as my savior, and as best I knew, begin to live a christian life, I could not be saved?

While I agree that it is scriptural that we assemble with other believers, where does it say,
we have to "join" a church? The scripture does say
that God added to the church daily such as was saved. But I believe
that was to the "universal body of believers" not to a local body.

I sure hope my salvation is not based on a group of people.
I surely haven't found where the scripture say "no man cometh to the father but by the church."

I've been too dissapionted by people to ever place my hope salvation in them.

I feel like David when he numbered the people and God sent the prophet
to tell him ot select the punishment. He gave three options.
David chose to have three days destruction at the hand of the Lord. He
knew that the Lord was merciful and had pity.

He sure didn't want to fall into the hand of men.

RuSKY

RuSKY wrote:

paul wrote:agree

So Paul, you are stating that, If somehow, I was shipwrecked on an
deserted island and through prior knowledge of God's word, I repented of my sin,
accepted Christ as my savior, and as best I knew, begin to live a christian life, I could not be saved?

While I agree that it is scriptural that we assemble with other believers, where does it say,
we have to "join" a church? The scripture does say
that God added to the church daily such as was saved. But I believe
that was to the "universal body of believers" not to a local body.

I sure hope my salvation is not based on a group of people.
I surely haven't found where the scripture say "no man cometh to the father but by the church."

I've been too dissapionted by people to ever place my hope salvation in them.

I feel like David when he numbered the people and God sent the prophet
to tell him ot select the punishment. He gave three options.
David chose to have three days destruction at the hand of the Lord. He
knew that the Lord was merciful and had pity.

He sure didn't want to fall into the hand of men.

RuSKY

I do not want to hijack PG's thread here. My contention is simply that we especially in America have taken the indivilistic mind set to the extreme. This came about during the enlightenment period when our country was being founded, and we bought into the cultural version of this emphisis.

When you tell me that Something is between you and God. I will adamitly disagree. You are a part of a body of believers and you are my brother and it is not between you and God alone. Whether you like it or not, it is between you God and me and all the rest of the people of God that make up his called out people. This is best done in a local assembly. Paul referred to the Corinthian church ( even with its problems) as a Temple of God. A place in the community where in the mist of all the pagan temples, there is a place where God's people come together in Love, Unity, and power of the Holy Spirit. Yes that temple is individual, but it is also corporate.

The individual has become god. This is not to say that God does not deal with us on an individual basis. He does. But if we follow the concept of God having a people then we mknow that he is saving us:

1. To be a people of God. For Paul and many of the early church fathers
(Cyprian) to be saved means not only to be redeemed but to joined to the people of God.

I did not say that the person who said the prayer was not saved....reread the post. I said that in the New Testament era especially for Paul if that person did not become a part of the church a local assemply, then they would question the validity of the conversion.

Remember when we read Paul we must understand that Paul did not see a seperation between the O.T. and the New. He saw what was happening as a continuation. The difference now was that it was not by birth nor by keepiong a set of rules, but rather through the blood of Jesus. A people called out to be a people of God to so forth His love, compassion, and power in these last days to reach the ends of the earth, that he might return for us. So I agree with the premis of PG question.

Sorry Pastor Gary......I got carried away

I'd like to see the fuller context of the statement. I can't say if I agree or disagree on its face. It is a little, to me, vague.

Anyone who is to find Christ must first find the church.

Literally read, that means you must find the church before finding Christ. That's certainly not true. I doubt that's what he intended.

How could anyone know where Christ is and what faith is in him unless he knew where his believers are?

I'm not sure which he and him Luther means. The "believer" or Christ?

"How could anyone know where Christ is and what faith is in him...". Does Luther mean "what faith in Christ is" or "what faith lies inside the 'anyone'"? I don't know because it continues "unless he [the believer] knew where his [Christ's] believers are?" I wish he'd been less loose with the pronouns.

IF he means, "Anyone who has found Christ and would continue to discover His ways [that's my personal spin on his "is to find Christ", and it may be wrong] must immediately find the church. How could anyone know where Christ is active and what it means to have faith in Him unless he also knows where Christ's believers are?"

I don't read that, then, as a condition of salvation, but as a common sense observation that healthy, "normal", productive, mission-accomplishing Christian living happens inside the church. With that, I agree.

Sorry P.G.

I did not mean to hijack the thread.

My answer should have been "completely disagree"


RuSKY

I also would like to see the full context. However, here is a thought. I think that many of you are looking at the quote as though it were written by a former preacher of denominational exclusivity. He didn't say you had to be a "member" of the church to find Christ, he simply stated you had to find the church. Not "The Church", just the church.

Rusky mentioned he hoped he could be saved if ever he found himself on a deserted island. I hope so too, but in order to know who you should call on for salvation the message must first have been delivered to Rusky. Who delivered the message of salvation to him before the shipwreck? The atheists? The agnostics? The muslims? The pagans? I dare say the message of salvation would have come from the church. After all Jesus left the church with the commandment to share the gospel.

And do keep in mind, that Saul undoubtedly had found the church before Jesus even called him out on the road to Damascus. Finding the church and believing the message of the church are two different things.

Can God still call out to individuals the same way he did Abraham? Sure. That's why I would add the word "Most" in front of "Anyone".

paul wrote:

Pastor Bill wrote:I'll disagree based on the word "first" Paul himself found Christ BEFORE he found the church, then Christ led him to the church.

I'll disagree...Paul did not find Christ...Christ found Paul walking on the road....

OK! OK! I'll give you that, BUT my point still stands, Paul's relationship with Christ started prior to his relationship to the church.

I will say that these two are connected, and a person cannot accept Christ while rejecting the church, but I don't believe the order has to be church then Christ, in fact it could be argued that you don't truly know the church till you know Christ.

And as pointed out, this is not a denominational view of "the church" but as in the body or community of believers, which we all NEED to be a part of.

Pastor Bill wrote:

paul wrote:

Pastor Bill wrote:I'll disagree based on the word "first" Paul himself found Christ BEFORE he found the church, then Christ led him to the church.

I'll disagree...Paul did not find Christ...Christ found Paul walking on the road....

And as pointed out, this is not a denominational view of "the church" but as in the body or community of believers, which we all NEED to be a part of.[/quote]

Herein lies the key