quandry...

[RamboPreacher]

I come in contact with "anti-christians" all the time online and IRL. they may be "weak" or "strong" atheist, or even agnostic. They are against religions, especially the exclusive-club, called Christianity.

One of the common paradigms or questions they have is "what are you saved from?" the most common Christian response is that they aren't going to go to hell after they die. My answer isn't so "easy". I will usually say something about God's righteousness and that it's more about being saved-to and being brought back to a relationship with God.

in any case, their typical response is to ask how do you know there is a heaven and hell, and further, as a Christian, it seems that we are more afraid of hell, than we are of loving God.

So, here's where I am going... in a grandiose "what-if" scenario and there is no "afterlife", I would say that it doesn't matter to me, that my relationship with God, in the right here and now is blessing me. I am blessed coming and going. I am blessed whether I am in financial straits or have monies in the bank.

This is the one what-if scenario (what if there is no afterlife at all), that just doesn't matter to me. I have come to a realization within this (non-possible) scenario - I don't serve God for what He gives me, or what He will give me. I don't serve and love God because he has made me fireproof. I just serve Him because I love Him.

It is interesting, because I look back on my Christian life and do not recall a single time or instant that I was even afraid of hell. it has always been more about a desire to be with God, than not being in hell.

[Pastorbps]

Never been afraid of Hell?

Heb 10:31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Luke 12:4-5
4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear : Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
(Why fear Him? Because He hath power to cast into Hell.)

Twas grace that taught my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved.

Nothing wrong with fear. If there is no judgment how do you appreciate mercy?

[Billy n NC]

I was looking for the Like button .. LOL

Good read.

I can still remember the day that my Christian attitude changed.
Having lunch at a Shoneys with our Sales Manager. He asked what I/Church believed and I started listing off our We dont do this and we dont do that. etc.
Afterwards I remember thinking later Why didn't I tell him the good stuff of what our walk with God has done and is doing.

I remember the old story about someone being asked about afterlife and they told them What if you go thru your whole life being a Christian and doing Christianity and Die and there is nothing. And the guy says I have lost nothing but if there is a Heaven to gain and not do the Christian walk I have lost everything. Something along those lines.

[Mike Vande]

They won't like it when you tell them, but what we are saved from is sin, ours and the original sin that condemned mankind. It is sin that separates mankind form God in the present day, and that is what Jesus died to pay for, so mankind could be one with God again.

They won't like hearing that because sin is an archaic superstition to everyone but Christians these days. But, if they are actually asking what we are saved from, it is a perfect opportunity to share the Gospel with them, whether they like hearing it or not. You are responsible to share the Gospel, the way those who hear it with respond is up to them.They don't have to like it, and a lot of them won't. That's their loss.

If that sounds uncompassionate, I'm sorry, but it's the truth.

[MacUser]

I'm always drawn to the intelligent design question.

From an intellectual standpoint... It's no way possible, the sheer stats are so against what we have become to be just an amazing accident. Notice how everything has a purpose / function. Random confusion and chaos doesn't birth purpose or intelligent design.

As a designer myself. Perfect design doesn't just happen. Nothing has ever made itself on my desk or computer. It takes a creative element to birth, shape, mold, refine and give purpose... whether in natural structures, animal kingdom, or ourselves.

When I design on my primitive level.. I give purpose to something that had no purpose. On the most tiny of levels.. I can make simple things work and function.

If you can honestly step back and really look at what you are seeing around you and not see the revealed divine design... the essential signature of a master craftsman and how it's ALL been designed not from natural resources.. but from SCRATCH for a purpose.

It blows my mind as these things are revealed to me personally.

[RamboPreacher]

Never been afraid of Hell?

Heb 10:31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Luke 12:4-5
4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear : Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
(Why fear Him? Because He hath power to cast into Hell.)

Twas grace that taught my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved.

Nothing wrong with fear. If there is no judgment how do you appreciate mercy?

Great scriptures. and this is exactly my point. these are about God's righteousness, that we are "saved" from. thank you. Fear in awe of God is foremost, not afraid of going to hell!

[beckrl]

I have come into contact with some people that ask me" Why do you believe the bible, isn't it written by man?, How do you know there is a God?, How do you know there is an afterlive?" Most of the time these people really aren't looking to find out the truth in God, but simply looking for a sign, some intelligent proof (scientific proof)so that can rely on that rather that have faith.

It's obvious that the Israelites had all the proof they could ever want of God's physical existence and His love for them. What they lacked was faith! As Christians, the Bible tells us,"We live by faith, not by sight." 2 Corinthians 5:7. If the Lord had intended for us to be able to "prove" His existence to people, there would be no need for faith!

[justsam]

RP, you know I love ya, but I want to add a perspective to what you have said here..
Many people do not relate to what you have said about living without the presence of God, because they already live quite contentedly without Him. He is not a part of their everyday lives and they think they are happy. Hell is real and the fire of hell is a torment. It was not designed for people but people will spend eternity there who have not received Jesus as their Savior. The Word says that some will be saved, "through fear" and that is through knowing that hell is real. If we downplay it, than that is the same thing as taking away from the Word of God, (which I'm sure is not your intent). I have been on IRC in the past enough to know that there are plenty of scoffers but don't let their skepticism affect your witness for Christ. Love ya, Jennifer

[justsam]

(Not sam btw!)

[RamboPreacher]

On the other hand, I have seen many folks "get saved" because they were afraid they would get hit by a mac truck and go to hell as soon as they left the church. I agree with what you are saying, and it isn't perspective, in my opinion, it's reality. but to be a Christian mostly because you are afraid of hell (not God's judgment) - I have seen them come and I have seen them go; and they mostly go.

[Pastorbps]

Great scriptures. and this is exactly my point. these are about God's righteousness, that we are "saved" from. thank you. Fear in awe of God is foremost, not afraid of going to hell!

Rambo
They are great scriptures and I think you need to read them again carefully. If Jesus' point was simply "fear God" He would have left it at that but He didn't say that at all. He said, "Fear Him who after He hath killed hath the power to cast into Hell." Why did He add the "hath the power to cast into Hell?"

Is Hell real? Then who in their right mind wouldn't fear going there?

I'm sorry but I'm really concerned about this idea you and others are expressing that Hell and the fear of judgment really have little or no part in the Gospel message. I believe it is a huge part of the Gospel message. You say you don't know people who have been Saved by fear. I think fear plays a part in most Salvation experiences.
I find your position to be a grave error and misrepresentation of the Gospel. (This is where you say, "You're right what was I thinking")

Let me also say this. Because I believe in Hell doesn't mean I don't appreciate the positive side of the Gospel message nor does it mean I don't believe in, preach, and try to practice a loving, personal, daily relationship with God.

Finally, so I can really understand your position, what are we being "Saved" from?

[RamboPreacher]

missing the point. Bottom line: fearing a place that you aren't going to participate in, is illogical, in my opinion. I had tried to differenciate the positive "fear" of the Lord, and a negative being "afraid" of hell. the two "fears" are NOT the same.

[Pastorbps]

On the other hand, I have seen many folks "get saved" because they were afraid they would get hit by a mac truck and go to hell as soon as they left the church. I agree with what you are saying, and it isn't perspective, in my opinion, it's reality. but to be a Christian mostly because you are afraid of hell (not God's judgment) - I have seen them come and I have seen them go; and they mostly go.

This isn't referring to Christians not being afraid of Hell. This is about sinners being afraid of dying and going to Hell and that reality being used in a presentation of the Gospel. I think it is a legitimate part of the sharing of the Gospel and I'm very concerned there is a movement to downplay that reality. You differentiate between fearing Hell and fearing God's judgment. What is the difference to the sinner? I don't see where Jesus made that distinction when He said to "Fear Him...who hath the power to cast into Hell."

I get what you're saying about the Christian. I don't think we should live in terror of Hell and serve God for that reason. However, I do think there is a healthy fear a Christian should have of denying the faith and the consequences of turning back (Rom. 11:20-22; Heb 4:1). Of course, this goes back to OSAS.

Here's my example. A good parent uses both the blessings of obedience and the fear of the consequences of disobedience to keep a child on track. I serve God because I love God and He loves me but I also am always aware of the consequences of not maintaining my faith stedfast to the end. Both of these factors serve to steer me in the right direction. "Behold the goodness and severity of God."

[dolfan]

You know, I'm one who has applauded and been part of a church striving to be relevant. I still think that's necessary. But, one thing is certain no matter where you are, what your church is, what your philosophy, so-called, might be about presenting the Gospel: the law of God is necessary to bring people to a moment of truth about their own sinfulness. That realization is the only thing I'm aware of that can really develop "godly sorrow" in a person. It doesn't present itself nice and tidy. It could be a rough, rudimentary thought of, "You know, I better get my act together or I might wind up in hell." People do think that way, y'know. That kind of self-honesty is a step toward wisdom, it is rooted in a good fear of God, even if it is not fully self aware of it being just exactly that. To me, any thought or motivation that says (and, I'll borrow from Alan Jackson) "I'll get my life straight", is potentially wonderful. Doing that in a way that C.S. Lewis described as "under our own steam" winds up in failure, but somewhere in there God may be quietly or loudly beckoning. I hope for me, and for everyone, we hear Him. I do know this: left to "my own steam", I am a colossal train wreck. The reality of Hell and of judgment for sin shed a huge spotlight on that, and over time, my vision of that gets clearer and clearer. Lord, help us all.

[ImaPK]

Anyone want to hear the sinner's perspective?