does torture really work

[one love]

Yes I agree that there seems to have been some success with the use of interrogation techniques that some would consider torture. The question we really need to know in order to make a real analysis of these techniques is how often does it NOT work?

I have read many opinions on this subject but I have to wonder how many innocent people have been tortured? How many gave the answers they wanted to hear just to stop the pain? These change everything surrounding this debate.

How many times has it worked verses how many times it did not?

Example:

During the time of the black plague people were losing their minds trying to figure out why so many were dying. Over half the population died in some areas. While answers were not coming some zealots started to torture themselves in ways Christ was tortured as a way of showing repentance hoping God would have mercy. Well they then blamed the Jews.
It did not matter that the Jews were dying as well, they tortured a Jewish man until he admitted that the Jews were bringing in poison and that was the cause of all the deaths. He gave them what they wanted just to stop the pain. By his admission MANY Jews were killed, those that were not fled to Poland.

You have to ask the question, what if most of us would do the same to stop torture?

[MacUser]

One Love.
Honestly brother.. have we not covered this extensively?

The debate is Healthcare;
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... are_reform

Just 41% of voters nationwide now favor the health care reform proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats. That’s down two points from a week ago and the lowest level of support yet measured.

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 56% are opposed to the plan.

Plus the Liberals now wanting Illegal coverage. *Shock!*
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... -illegals/

Fearful that they're losing ground on immigration and health care, a group of House Democrats is pushing back and arguing that any health care bill should extend to all legal immigrants and allow illegal immigrants some access.

[one love]

What does health care have to do with this thread? I am tired of talking about health care at the moment. I happened to study some of the history behind torture and thought it was interesting.
I am not saying I am against water boarding etc. I do wonder how many innocent have been in these shoes.

So back to thread....

[Full Quiver]

Kevin, I agree. Put yourself in the shoes of those being waterboarded or whatever. Tell them to your blue in the face literally that you know nothing but they continue. Then just make up something that sounds good and wow it stops.

The fact is we are humans dealing with humans and if we naively believe that our military or CIA NEVER gets anything wrong then we are in bad shape ourselves.

Am I against torture? Only if it is an American citizen or a citizen of our Allies. Then we pressure them to get the truth out.

[Jennifer Smith]

I'm against torture including waterboarding. Yes I believe it may result in false information or forced confessions.

[one love]

FQ and Jennifer,

I agree as well. Strange how this one event got me really thinking about this practice and the true effectiveness it may have.


Here is part of one article of the account:

In 1348 there appeared in Europe a devastating plague which is reported to have killed off ultimately twenty-five million people. By the fall of that year the rumor was current that these deaths were due to an international conspiracy of Jewry to poison Christendom. It was reported that the leaders in the Jewish metropolis of Toledo had initiated the plot and that one of the chief conspirators was a Rabbi Peyret who had his headquarters in Chambéry, Savoy, whence he dispatched his poisoners to France, Switzerland, and Italy.

By authority of Amadeus VI, Count of Savoy, a number of the Jews who lived on the shores of Lake Geneva, having been arrested and put to the torture, naturally confessed anything their inquisitors suggested. These Jews, under torture, incriminated others. Records of their confessions were sent from one town to another in Switzerland and down the Rhine River into Germany, and as a result, thousands of Jews, in at least two hundred towns and hamlets, were butchered and burnt. The sheer loss of numbers, the disappearance of their wealth, and the growing hatred of the Christians brought German Jewry to a catastrophic downfall. It now began to decline and did not again play an important part in German life till the seventeenth century.

The first account that follows is a translation from the Latin of a confession made under torture by Agimet, a Jew, who was arrested at Chatel, on Lake Geneva. It is typical of the confessions extorted and forwarded to other towns.

[Susie Hamilton]

I feel tortured by this thread

[RamboPreacher]

almost always works for Jack.

[one love]

almost always works for Jack.

true that is what has compicated the issue so greatly

[dolfan]

Nehemiah thought torture would make Israel promise not to marry Gentile heathens. It worked, apparently.

Neh. 13:25 "And I contended with them, and cursed them, and smote certain of them, and plucked off their hair, and made them swear by God, saying, Ye shall not give your daughters unto their sons, nor take their daughters unto your sons, or for yourselves."

[one love]

Nehemiah thought torture would make Israel promise not to marry Gentile heathens. It worked, apparently.

Neh. 13:25 "And I contended with them, and cursed them, and smote certain of them, and plucked off their hair, and made them swear by God, saying, Ye shall not give your daughters unto their sons, nor take their daughters unto your sons, or for yourselves."

hmmm good point, However how did they treat those that commited adultery? Shall we really travel that road? I am not saying that we should not do waterboarding but I would love to know the true effectiveness. Is it 1 out 10? 5 out of ten, 1 out of a hundred, that actually works..

BTW he was torturing to prevent a act not to draw out information (that they may not have to begin with)....

[dolfan]

One love, I don't know where the line should be drawn, really. I thought the Nehemiah example was interesting, but I don't know that anybody should even try to make it a practical example to decide where to draw the line.

You drew a line, though, that also is interesting: prevention of an act vs. getting information. First, those whom Nehemiah "reached" were largely already intermarried; remember, they were made to put away those heathen wives. Nehemiah was working to prevent a repeat of that act. We were attacked, and the actions that followed were designed at least in part to get information to prevent a repeat of that. Secondly, the ultimate expression of God's justice was made through an act of torture on a cross. It was retributive, not just redemptive. Sin evokes the wrath of God ("the soul that sinneth, it shall die..."), and that wrath was aimed squarely at His own Son. It was also to prevent the wrath from visitation upon those who follow His Son. So, I don't know that a dividing line between "prevention" and "remedy" is even a helpful one in making that distinction between "good" and "bad" torture.

[Full Quiver]

Nehemiah thought torture would make Israel promise not to marry Gentile heathens. It worked, apparently.

In Numbers 25 God commanded Moses to bring the heads of the Israelites that were responsible for whoredoms and false god worship. Right in the midst of that torture and punishment another Israelite took a Midianite woman into his tent an d committed adultery with her before the entire camp. Yes Phineas slew him and her with a javelin but Moses beheading of the other folks didn't prevent more sin.

Sin is inbred into the heart of man and without a true relationship with the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ man will do what man does and that is act as an agent for Satan in this world and kill, steal, and destroy.

[dolfan]

Oh, I don't disagree with that. But, you might have to take it up with Nehemiah. I was just quoting what he said.

[Russell Roberts]

Thou shalt not torture people.