Jude 2

Just how closely connected are belief and baptism?
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Mac,

Glad you liked it!

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P.S. Glad you were baptized too!

It's interesting that you should be talking about this particular passage. This is the scripture we are currently studying in our Acts Bible Study. I tend to think these men were disciples of Jesus BUT they did not know Him as the Christ. I tend to think they saw Jesus much the same as others saw John the Baptist. The question is, where did these men come from? I tend to think they were either converts of Apollos prior to his greater learning or they had learned about Jesus the same way as Apollos. Perhaps they had visited Judea during early days of Jesus' ministry and while John was still living. Upon hearing of followers of Jesus, they assumed they were speaking of Jesus the same way as others spoke of being disciples of John the Baptist. They too were disciples of Jesus but not Christians. Just a thought.
If they were associated with Apollos we do know this - Apollos was definitely a disciple of Jesus. This is seen in the original text of Acts 18:25. The second use of "Lord" in the KJV is actually the word for Jesus.

I know this doesn't go along with your original post on water baptism and belief but I thought it would be interesting to discuss.

I do believe we have failed to make water baptism as important as it was in NT times. It was THE means of making a public profession of Jesus as the Christ and of identifying with His sacrifice.

Pastorbps wrote:I do believe we have failed to make water baptism as important as it was in NT times. It was THE means of making a public profession of Jesus as the Christ and of identifying with His sacrifice.

EXACTLY my point!

Pastorbps wrote:It's interesting that you should be talking about this particular passage. This is the scripture we are currently studying in our Acts Bible Study.

That is neat!

I tend to think these men were disciples of Jesus BUT they did not know Him as the Christ. I tend to think they saw Jesus much the same as others saw John the Baptist. The question is, where did these men come from? I tend to think they were either converts of Apollos prior to his greater learning or they had learned about Jesus the same way as Apollos. Perhaps they had visited Judea during early days of Jesus' ministry and while John was still living. Upon hearing of followers of Jesus, they assumed they were speaking of Jesus the same way as others spoke of being disciples of John the Baptist. They too were disciples of Jesus but not Christians. Just a thought.

For the record, for any following here who will not be reading the blog, I believe these were disciples of John the Baptist only. Not Christians.

I find some serious flaws with the idea that these were among the nominal disciples of Jesus if you will, yet did not know he was (or at least claimed to be) the Christ. However, I can empathize with your trying to understand how they were related to Christ, since they are designated as disciples and believers in the text. For me, the question is the nature of belief, and to whom they were disciples.

The fact that Paul asks them unto whom they have been baptized settles the issue for me. He was essentially asking them if they were disciples of Jesus or not. They were evidently Messianic believers, but Paul needed to distinguish just where their belief in messiah fell. Did they or did not they not own Jesus as Messiah? Clearly, at least to me, before hearing Paul, they did not.

If they were associated with Apollos we do know this - Apollos was definitely a disciple of Jesus. This is seen in the original text of Acts 18:25. The second use of "Lord" in the KJV is actually the word for Jesus.

Okay. But on what basis do you relate them to Apollos other than mere proximity in the text itself? Is there something substantive in the text that actually indicates these were disciples with or of Apollos (respectively)?

I actually think the fact that there is a clear demarcation between them, (i.e. Apollos & Paul, Corinth & Ephesus) that Luke is making it clear these are NOT related to the ministry of Apollos.

Poimen wrote:Just how closely connected are belief and baptism?
Check out this link...

http://worldmaybelieve.com/have-you-bee ... believing/

So why was Jesus Baptized ?
and what formula do you use and why?
do you accept any other formula other than the one you subscribe to?

What does Baptism have to do with Sanctification?

yes, several times.

Poimen:
Why would Paul ask the disciples of John the Baptist, who he did not see as Christians, if they had received the Holy Ghost? Do disciples of John the Baptist receive the Holy Ghost or do disciples of Jesus?
It is also important to note, I know of no other passage where the word "disciples" appears by itself while referring to someone other than a disciple of Jesus Christ.
Finally, don't you see it as a huge coincidence that you have Apollos mentioned in Ephesus just a few verses earlier and that it says he also knew only the baptism of John and yet he taught Jesus. I think the evidence is they were of the same mindset as Apollos. As I said before, there is NO DOUBT Apollos was a believer in Jesus who did not know anything except the baptism of repentance John the Baptist had instituted. This shows it is not only possible disciples of Jesus existed which did not understand anything except the baptism of repentance but they, in fact, existed.
I disagree with you. I don't believe they were simply disciples of John the Baptist. I believe they were followers of John and Jesus. I believe they saw Jesus as a prophet like John the Baptist, subsequent to John the Baptist, and possibly more anointed than John the Baptist. Yet, I think they thought he was only a prophet like John preaching the imminent appearance of the Kingdom of God, the command for repentance, and baptism for repentance. I don't think they knew Jesus was the Messiah until Paul explained Jesus was not a prophet like John the Baptist but rather the subject of John's prophecies.
Although I think the evidence leans toward my interpretation, I will grant you the fact there is no way to prove it conclusively.

Pastorbps wrote:Poimen:
Why would Paul ask the disciples of John the Baptist, who he did not see as Christians, if they had received the Holy Ghost? Do disciples of John the Baptist receive the Holy Ghost or do disciples of Jesus?

Because John's disciples were pre-Christians, anticipating the coming of Messiah and Spirit Baptism. In this way Paul was able to determine just where these :disciples" fell between the ministries of John and Jesus. What I'm saying is that Paul was probing with this question to find out whose disciples they were. He was leading them.

It is also important to note, I know of no other passage where the word "disciples" appears by itself while referring to someone other than a disciple of Jesus Christ.

Nor do I. That is a valid point. However, the next question Paul asks and the response he receives, for me, settles that these were not in fact disciples of Jesus, but Messianic hopeful's who had believed the message of the forerunner but had not yet realized Jesus was the fulfillment.

As an aside, naturally then, not having believed Jesus was the Christ until then, these had not yet been recipients of the Spirit baptism.

Finally, don't you see it as a huge coincidence that you have Apollos mentioned in Ephesus just a few verses earlier and that it says he also knew only the baptism of John and yet he taught Jesus.

I do! Though, I admit, until you posted the above reply, and I went back and re-read I didn't. I had overlooked the Ephesus connection with Apollos.

Still, I see no compelling evidence that Apollos was a Christian before having met Priscella and Aquila. I believe "the way of the Lord" here includes the preparatory message and ministry of the Baptist. Still, until one personally owns Christ as messiah, even if a disciple of John, and hence Messianic believers in their own right, they cannot with any validity (IMO) be called Christians.

Either way, because of their messianic expectation and devotion, these all proved in the end to be Christians -- the exact nature of the details of their coming to that aside.

paul wrote:So why was Jesus Baptized ?

Good questions, though I'm not sure what it is you are asking here. Is it why was Jesus baptized by John or why was Jesus baptized at all? Or something else I am not seeing?

and what formula do you use and why?
do you accept any other formula other than the one you subscribe to?

Well, honestly, I do not believe Biblical there is any formula given. I think that is a misnomer and/or misapplication of what ti is Scripture is saying. Therefore I do not believe a formula to be required.

However, naturally then, I have no problem with the pronunciation of either formula derived from Scripture at a baptism.

What does Baptism have to do with Sanctification?

Again I'm not sure the exact nature of your inquiry here. However, I will venture an answer and trust you will clarify if I have misunderstood.

I do not think baptism, properly speaking, has anything to do with our sanctification itself. However, I do believe it a testimony to it as an accomplished fact in our conversion, the same as justification and regeneration. Still, I do not believe baptism is the means of conveying such works of grace.

BTW Guys,

I cordially welcome (read that as "I'm beggin ya!!!" ) your comments over at the ministry blog itself!

"Have you receive the Holy Ghost since ye BELIEVED?"
Believed what?

Pastorbps wrote:"Have you receive the Holy Ghost since ye BELIEVED?"
Believed what?

I received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when I believed

paul wrote:

Pastorbps wrote:"Have you receive the Holy Ghost since ye BELIEVED?"
Believed what?

I received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when I believed

Paul just curious are you saying that the baptism of the holy ghost happens at repentance? If so what signifies this baptism , if anything?

Thanks.