Jude 2

Posted: **July 23rd, 2004, 6:28 pm**

I'd like to, if you would, have you give a sense of how you think about salvation.

Posted: **July 23rd, 2004, 6:41 pm**

Traditional Pentecostal view here - Saved as long as your hand is to the plow as they say... look back and backslide. Jesus said, "Remember Lot's wife."

pastorables

Posted: **July 23rd, 2004, 7:22 pm**

I chose "I don't know".

I was "saved" as a kid in the Baptist church and was baptised. Then I "rededicated my life to Jesus" several times throughout my teen years and was baptised again for good measure! :wink:

When I began dating my husband about 10 years ago, I went through "deliverance" a few times. :evil:

Since he entroduced me to the Pentacostal church, I've been down to the alter and prayed over a few times (Even experienced a hand on the forehead and a push down to the carpet!) :roll:

... and after all the above...

I still just don't know!:?::!:

I think the Baptist and Pentacostals hold totally different views on this subject? So it's no wonder I'm totally confused. I just figure if I'm snuffed out.. and God's wants me up there with Him, then He'll arrange it because I'm not quite sure how to ensure it myself while here on earth.

Posted: **July 23rd, 2004, 7:45 pm**

Salvation is a free gift that is not based on our works, only on our acceptance of His grace.

In Him we are Eternally Secure, but not trapped or tied in either.

I do believe we can give up our salvation not by mistakes, or faults, but by turning away from Christ. We have the free will to reject Him, just as the prodigal son ran away from his father, we can turn to our own lusts and reject Him. But just as that loving father, I believe God is constantly waiting, watching and calling us back.

So basicaly I don't believe OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) because I do not believe we lose our free will to choose, but I also don't believe the legalistic garbage that says you slip up and you're hellbound either.

If you want to secure your salvation, seek God, as long as we are seeking Him, we are finding Him (Matt 7:7), but it's not about our works, it's about the direction we are seeking.

Posted: **July 23rd, 2004, 7:59 pm**

Good remarks Pastorables and Pastor Bill.

Posted: **July 23rd, 2004, 8:00 pm**

I think the Baptist and Pentacostals hold totally different views on this subject? So it's no wonder I'm totally confused. I just figure if I'm snuffed out.. and God's wants me up there with Him, then He'll arrange it because I'm not quite sure how to ensure it myself while here on earth.

Little Sister,

Your post has brought me more compassion than any I have seen in quite awhile. At one time, I felt this same way. God indeed searched me out. I began to read his Word and formed a personal relationship for myself. Please don't view God from the perspective of the religious world. Religion can be cold, harsh and even dead. God gives life through Christ and "more abundantly". He loves you and will show you the way.

Sincerely,
pastorables

Posted: **July 24th, 2004, 3:50 am**

Hi Scooter, the choice you offered,

Actual "Salvation" is not at the altar but at the end

is an interesting one. I think that the Bible teaches that our salvation is both 'already' and 'not yet.'

For the justified it is a present possession:

Eph 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"

Eph 2:5 "even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

Tit 3:5 "He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy..."

2 Tim 1:9 God " who has saved us and called us to a holy life-not because of anything we have done..."

And it is also, at the same time, something that the justified will attain in the future:

Rom 5:9-10 "...how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!"

Matt 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved."

1 Tim 4:16 "Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you."

So, the Bible seems to allow for both a present salvation and a future consummation. We have the deposit, the fullness will come. However, the fact that there is a "not yet" aspect to our salvation in no way negates or takes away from the fact that we in fact do possess salvation now. We are already saved: it is a fact, and it is sure. The fullness to come doesn't diminish its present surety, but in fact underscores it.

Thoughts?

Tracy

Posted: **July 24th, 2004, 4:52 am**

Pastor Bill wrote:Salvation is a free gift that is not based on our works, only on our acceptance of His grace.

In Him we are Eternally Secure, but not trapped or tied in either.

I do believe we can give up our salvation not by mistakes, or faults, but by turning away from Christ. We have the free will to reject Him, just as the prodigal son ran away from his father, we can turn to our own lusts and reject Him. But just as that loving father, I believe God is constantly waiting, watching and calling us back.

So basicaly I don't believe OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) because I do not believe we lose our free will to choose, but I also don't believe the legalistic garbage that says you slip up and you're hellbound either.

If you want to secure your salvation, seek God, as long as we are seeking Him, we are finding Him (Matt 7:7), but it's not about our works, it's about the direction we are seeking.

Pastor Bill, You have a good way of wording things! While I do feel, as you do, that you CAN turn away and that negates the "eternal security" argument I do feel that I was raised with an "eternal IN-security" mentality. I WAS always afraid of losing my salvation and thank God I began to see some grace for me. I began to preach grace in the CoGoP and remember in Alabama after a message at a youth convention one gentleman came to me with tears in his eyes saying" I've never heard anything like that in my life". Let me also say that I beleive and teach that " Ephesians 2:10 says " for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." We are not saved by our works but if we are saved we will have good works and we will be rewarded according to our good works.

Posted: **July 24th, 2004, 5:08 am**

To me, scripture bears out that our salvation comes at the end of the way.

What we have now is an hope and promise of salvation. To cash in on that promise, we have to live in that hope and walk the best we can. The best we can may not be perfect, but that's where we find our advocate who offers us grace when we stumble.

Posted: **July 24th, 2004, 5:39 am**

Short version...

Salvation is a present and a future "thing".

The location one is born again at is irrelevant. I am saved NOW by my faith in the work of Christ and will be saved THEN by continueing in that faith thus producing the works of it and being a faithful disciple.

I personally have been saved, and backslid several times in the course of my life. So I don't buy OSAS. Of those times I have prayed in a bed, in a car, in an altar/church, etc. :wink:

Posted: **July 24th, 2004, 5:42 am**

Sorry Tracy.

You had already offered the essence of my thoughts on the present and future sense of salvation quite well. :oops:

Posted: **July 24th, 2004, 7:26 am**

panhandler wrote: Let me also say that I beleive and teach that " Ephesians 2:10 says " for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." We are not saved by our works but if we are saved we will have good works and we will be rewarded according to our good works.

I agree, Works should be present in the life of a christian, but as this verse shows they should be the results of salvation, not the other way around.

Works are the results of a saved individual seeking God, unfortunately many preach this backwards teaching that salvation is the result of living a perfect life, or requires those works. That is like saying in order to plant a seed the plant has to grow. Salvation grows works, works don't create salvation.

On the other hand, As Paul stated Faith without works is dead, meaning if the seed is planted but never grows, it is a waste. that doesn't mean the seed wasn't planted (Salvation) but does mean the blessings are missed. This is like a Christian who gets saved, but stops seeking God beyond that point, or chooses to continue living for themselves and rejecting God's working in their lives. It is this that Paul speaks against, the one time to the altar and then push Christ out of their lives. That is the problem I have with OSAS (and I was Baptist in HS) I have seen people that really had a heart for God, and I can't doubt their salvation just fully turn their backs and reject him, many will say "they never TRUELY got saved, but that makes salvation seem so much harder than it really is (and actually pushes those people away feeling like if they couldn't get it right as much as they thought they had then they probably never could)

I do believe in Eternal Security, my security is in Christ, and as long as I leave it there, I am secure, it's when I take it back I'm in trouble.

Posted: **July 24th, 2004, 7:32 am**

I guess, the first thing that I would like to comment on before I offer my opinion, is that what is the definition of altar? I didn't accept Christ as my Savior at a church, let alone at an altar. I hope that isn't offensive, but to me the beginning is that "sheep beget sheep", salvation should be concentrated as a beginning outside the "church" (walls/building), in then hiways and biways.

I accepted Christ February 21, 1980. It was 10:28 in the morning and I was driving my bright Orange Camaro SS to work. While listening to a cassette tape (I was ahead of my time and got rid of the 8-trak a couple years before) of some very hard rock and roll music, when "I came to myself".

After others had planted teh Gospel in my life from since I could remember, I realized that I was on a highway to hell, and there was nothing I could to to get off. I remembered that "By Grace are ye saved" in my heart and several other scriptures came to my memory and accepted Christ as my living savior while driving to work - no physical altar.

before I continue with my opinion (based on the understanding that altar can mean anywhere the person actually accepts Christ in their life, and repents of their sins), please don't brand me Calvanist (posative or negative) too quickly.

I believe that once saved, always saved is true.

The caveate is that I believe that some people don't truely experience the loveing, restored, relationship with our creator through His Son, during that moment that others might. In other words, they are born again, but because of various reasons (their heart/soil may lack depth, or is too hard at teh time, etc...); they can later reject, deny, or just ignore the relationship they started back with Christ.

Further, I believe that unless more tilling, planting, and watering happens in their lives - yes, it is possible that they go to their grave having rejected (even if not conciously) Christ.

On the otherside of that are those that do experience that restored, loving relationship with our God, and creator and never fall far from it (at least for very long). These are the ones that are probably "sanctified", very early on in their salvation, because there is nothing that can take them from that relationship, no matter teh circumstance or turmoil that satan throws at them.

I am trying to be as brief as possible, I know how many don't like to read "book"-posts... Then the other point I would like to make is that The Levitical Law was fullfulled, and atonement made, but we are free-will agency people and can choose. with that, and the fact that we are living in a covenant/dispensation of Grace and Mercy (jude2).

Who are we, mere mortal beings (anthropan) to say what is going on in the soul, and spirit of someone at the moment before physical death? As the thief on the Cross next to Christ, I can see no reason that God, through His working agent on this earth (Holy Spirit) can't give that person one more chance (power of conviction, NOT condemnation) to accept Him (again) before physical death.

Once "saved" - eternally saved - YES
Once "Saved", one can be lost eternally - YES
Actual "Salvation" is not at the altar but at the end - YES

Posted: **July 24th, 2004, 8:30 am**

Pastor Bill wrote:
I agree, Works should be present in the life of a christian, but as this verse shows they should be the results of salvation, not the other way around.

Works are the results of a saved individual seeking God, unfortunately many preach this backwards teaching that salvation is the result of living a perfect life, or requires those works. That is like saying in order to plant a seed the plant has to grow. Salvation grows works, works don't create salvation.

On the other hand, As Paul stated Faith without works is dead, meaning if the seed is planted but never grows, it is a waste. that doesn't mean the seed wasn't planted (Salvation) but does mean the blessings are missed. This is like a Christian who gets saved, but stops seeking God beyond that point, or chooses to continue living for themselves and rejecting God's working in their lives. It is this that Paul speaks against, the one time to the altar and then push Christ out of their lives. That is the problem I have with OSAS (and I was Baptist in HS) I have seen people that really had a heart for God, and I can't doubt their salvation just fully turn their backs and reject him, many will say "they never TRUELY got saved, but that makes salvation seem so much harder than it really is (and actually pushes those people away feeling like if they couldn't get it right as much as they thought they had then they probably never could)

I do believe in Eternal Security, my security is in Christ, and as long as I leave it there, I am secure, it's when I take it back I'm in trouble.

I believe as you do Pastor Bill. Surely your congregation holds you to be a man of the WORD. I only write about works when talking about grace because so many confuse the issue if you say you truly believe in grace. Here is how it stands for me. I am a sinner! Do I sin? YES. Do I come to a situation and know right from wrong and sometimes choose wrong? YES! THIS IS SIN! James 4:17 " Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is SIN". Do I, because of grace excuse this and continue to live in sin? GOD FORBID! (Paul's words)I go to the Father and ask forgiveness and He forgives and "remembers it against me no more". This does not give me a license to sin! Sin seperates me from fellowship with the Father. Am I bound for hell in the time between the sin and the repentance? NO! I John says sin not but if we sin we have an advocate with the Father. Here is where works come in. Not only in Ephesians 2:10, but here in James 2:3 " and hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments".. If you are saved you are saved by grace. If you are saved you will do good works. I am loving this discussion! BLESSINGS!

Posted: **July 25th, 2004, 12:44 pm**

pastorables wrote:Little Sister,

Your post has brought me more compassion than any I have seen in quite awhile. At one time, I felt this same way. God indeed searched me out. I began to read his Word and formed a personal relationship for myself. Please don't view God from the perspective of the religious world. Religion can be cold, harsh and even dead. God gives life through Christ and "more abundantly". He loves you and will show you the way.

Sincerely,
pastorables

Thanks so much for your response. This same message seems to be coming at me from several different avenues lately... to seek Him for myself and build a personal relationship with Him and not be so concerned about what this group says or what that group believes. I've got a few good believers who are praying God will show me the way.

I'm trying to be open. But there is another belief people have that is greatly disturbing to me... the belief that God has already chosen a certain few and that He only seeks those out. So, I sit here and wonder if I'm one that He has chosen and will seek (or is seeking):?: If I am not, my searching/seeking will be in vain?

For some reason, I just had a vision of my toddler picking up cereal that he has spilled. He picks them up one by one and puts them back in his bowl and will continue to spill out cereal while trying to pick up cereal because he's leaning over too far or has the bowl at an odd angle... I think I feel like that with my attempts to glean spiritual knowledge.

Jude 2

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