Jude 2

To avoid hijacking another thread, I thought it best to start a new topic in which I hope we can explore what, in your view, defines pentecostalism.

In order to be pentecostal, does one have to accept some core set of doctrinal positions? In order for a church to be pentecostal are there certain styles of worship and practice required?

I'll submit, only as conversation starter examples, a few points:

• Must all pentecostal worship services be characterized by what might be termed "concert prayer" in which the entire congregation prays aloud simultaneously?

• Are verbal outbursts of exuberant shouts, or loud speaking in tongues during random times (during the preaching/teaching, for instance) normative and to be expected?

• Or, is pentecostalism more accurately characterized as a theological position acknowledging the perpetuity of Spiritual Gifts, and a belief in some kind of "second/third blessing" experience subsequent to salvation?

• Or, something else entirely, since those were cited to just get the conversation rolling and are not meant to be exhaustive.

Let's talk.

Pentecostal comes from the word Pentecost, the English word for one of the annual Holy Days outlined in the Bible in Leviticus 23. The word means "fiftieth," as the proper day for the observance is determined by counting fifty days from a Sabbath during the earlier Feast of Unleavened Bread. In Acts 2 in the New Testament, the disciples of Jesus were gathered together on this annual Holy Day in Jerusalem when they first received the empowerment of the Holy Spirit after Jesus' resurrection. The most noticeable feature of this occasion was that each of the disciples "spoke with other tongues," and those in the audience, who were from many other nations, were surprised to hear them speak in their own native languages.

The term Pentecostal, when applied to religious groups, teachers, or customs, usually implies that the participants believe that all Christians should expect to experience the same empowerment of the Holy Spirit, particularly evidenced by the gift of speaking in tongues. Many Pentecostals believe this empowerment to happen at a time separate from conversion or water baptism.

Pentecostal and Charismatic are sometimes used interchangeably to designate the same groups, teachers, and phenomena. However, most students of religious history tend to use the term Pentecostal to refer to the more old fashioned, unsophisticated groups that developed out of a Holy Spirit movement that began around 1900 AD.(1889 FOR COGOP) And they use the term Charismatic to refer to a more contemporary, sophisticated branch of this general belief system that has developed since the late 1950s.

Within this definition there is a wide assortment of doctrinal views, and pracitces. Because of my personal experience with a varity of pentecostal groups both ib America and around the world, practices vary widely. For me I have no problem with an occasional outburst. I would not ike a steady diet of it but on occasions it is refreshing. I have witnissed both extremes. From trashing all over, uncontrolable moanings. This is especially notable in developing countries were people are very emotional. the other extreme is where the church is trying to be so progressive it has become stale, stagnant, void of passion.

For me, I long for the manifestation of God's genuine power in the lives of the believer. I long for the time when people can come to Gods house and find true deliverence, healing, love, compassion and acceptance, and learn the revelation of the Fathers heart toward them. I tire of the extreme frenzy on one hand and the putrid stagnat literagy on the other. Surely God has given us the wisdom to find the balance.

Gary (and Paul),

I've been fortunate to observe Pentecostals on at least four continents...and there are a world of differences in how "Pentecostalism" is described.

Pentecostals in Scandinavia are almost Presbyterian in worship-style. Pentecostals in South Korea are almost Methodist in worship-style, except for the corporate praying.

Pentecostals in Australia are somewhat "charismatic"...

Pentecostals in the United States are as different as the regions in which they are located.

Vinson Synan, noted theologican and historian, would say that Pentecostal is a "worship style"---but not so. The Pentecostals in Sweden are just as "Pentecostal" as the folks in Alexandria, Louisiana (minus the "highway of holiness" on the sisters' heads, LOL).

It's a wide open discussion, with many, many right answers. Depending on one's point of reference, experience, and perspective.

We had a similar discussion a couple of years ago. This still weighs heavily on my mind as I ponder Pentecost:

Dolfan posted:

I think it is crucially important to realize the context of the drunkenness perception. Pentecost was a Jewish festival (by another name) celebrating first fruits. Every Jewish man over 20 was required by the Torah to attend. They were solemn, studious, and devoted days. And, they were days in which the morning prayers were followed by drinking wine and eating bread as part of the festival. To see these people, these 120, among whom some or all probably were participants in the thoroughly Judaic festival complete with its customs, observances of the Law, etc., proclaiming this message in different languages but at the same time, would reasonably cause onlookers and passers by to question if they had imbibed in a bit too much of the morning wine and bread. There is ample historic study to support this view, and no scholarly study of note to support a sort of "shoutin' service" environment of this gathering. These were serious people acting seriously. From this context, Peter arose and spoke seriously and directly, and with warning, of sin, judgment, redemption, and the practical meaning of the messages of those foreign-language speakers (those speaking in tongues). Everything about this is a solemn occasion, met with fear by those who believed, and repentance.

There is absolutely no comparison to the "drunkenness" of charismatic carrying-on and the "drunkenness" of the day of Pentecost. There is more of a comparison, in my view, to charismatic "drunk-in-the-Spirit" behavior and what goes on in a juke joint.

If Pentecostalism is a style, then there's nothing in the NT that supports the whirling dervishes and histrionic bodily movements as being Pentecostal. At best, those who would enjoy that kind of worship gathering can only say, "Well, you can't say it couldn't have been that way," and that may be true. But, I don't personally think we can say we're living biblically if we point to the absence of something from the bible as an example of its legitimate presence.

Pastor Kelvin Page, Westmore Church of God (and a dear friend of many years from our Lee days), preached an amazing series:

http://www.westmorecog.org/media/weekly ... ost-part-2

dolfan wrote:At best, those who would enjoy that kind of worship gathering can only say, "Well, you can't say it couldn't have been that way," and that may be true. But, I don't personally think we can say we're living biblically if we point to the absence of something from the bible as an example of its legitimate presence.

What if the question was "why can't I worship that way"?, with emotional gratitude and praise and adoration to our King?

Why can't I dance for the Lord? Why can't I shout glory to His name? Why can't I walk for Him, run for Him, dance, sing, shout, roll, bounce, fall, twirl, and be unruly for Him? Or I should say, be undignified. for Him.

A church shouldn't be so strict that it stifles growth and movement, yet it also can't be so loose that it defies structure and order. Balance is key.

dolfan wrote:
If Pentecostalism is a style, then there's nothing in the NT that supports the whirling dervishes and histrionic bodily movements as being Pentecostal. At best, those who would enjoy that kind of worship gathering can only say, "Well, you can't say it couldn't have been that way," and that may be true. But, I don't personally think we can say we're living biblically if we point to the absence of something from the bible as an example of its legitimate presence.

Response: Somewhat true, however, when the bible says forbid not to speak in tongues, yet entire denominations do it makes you scratch your head. We do know that it happened, yet strangely the lack is celebrated. Go figure.

The Bible is very clear in the book of Acts and Corinthians about the outward move of the spirit and the inward. it really shouldnt be open to debate. the only thing i know of that anyone has ever said to deny tounges, prophecy, healing, and so on is that those things have ceased. there is no Biblical truth to that at all if we believe that Jesus is (that which is perfect). Paul said to not forbid tounges, and covet to prophesy. let all things be done decently and in order. let me write this another way. let ALL THINGS BE DONE decently and in order. if we follow this teaching and understand patterns of the book of Acts we cant go wrong. and for the record, i asked a couple of questions on the other thread that were ignored. which seems to be the case most of the time on Jude 2. so let me put it to you this way, as members of cogop and other pentecostal churchs do we believe that the outward signs and wonders of the new testament still happen today? also, do we believe that they have a place in public worship.

It s always amazing that the church takes a either/or approach to many doctrinal views.

Sanctification: Positional or progressive
Return of the Lord: Pre-Mid-Post

In the debate of the manifestation of the Holy Spirit the classic approach is for one group to Say it is all about the Character of God the other saying it is all about the Power or manifestation of God.

When in reality neither stands alone. The character of God is imputed into the life of the believer at converson. He is set apart to the Lord Jesus. Gal. 5 tells us the various characters of God in the listing of the Fruit of the Spirit. The power gift given to believers are listed in ICor. 12. the gifts of the Spirit.

To desire the power and manifestation apart from the character of God leads to misuse and abuse. But to develope the character of God and not to use the power of God in the giftings falls short of what we are called to accomplish in this world as believers.

For myself. When I came to Christ he imputed his character into my life. He has used a process over time and situations to allow me to mature and develope those characteristics in my life. While they developed He also has allowed me to be used by Him through the Holy Spirit to be an instrument of His manifest power in this earth.

I was set apart unto Him (positional) and as I grow in Him I am continually being set apart from the things of the world (progressive).

His character and His power is made manifest in the life of the believer.

IMHO

to a couple of direct questions. i think that would clear it up for me to hear yes or no to the questions i have asked.

dawgs10

so let me put it to you this way, as members of cogop and other pentecostal churchs do we believe that the outward signs and wonders of the new testament still happen today?

Yes absolutely

also, do we believe that they have a place in public worship.

Yes absolutely

Sadly.. I feel these religious titles divide in a trivial manner... setup traditional vs [insert x here] divisions.... when we need to focus on who we are. You are not any divisionary sub group - regardless of past history, traditional, family members views... You are Sons ( and daughters ) of God!!

Galatians 3:26-29

26. You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27. for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Let the Holy Spirit have the Freedom to do whatever HE so desires to do.. just don't use Him as a command trick to combat some imaginary enemy of your divisionary tradition.

Stop living below whom God called you to be.
Identity Theft is tragic.

MacUser wrote:Sadly.. I feel these religious titles divide in a trivial manner... setup traditional vs [insert x here] divisions.... when we need to focus on who we are. You are not any divisionary sub group - regardless of past history, traditional, family members views... You are Sons ( and daughters ) of God!!

Galatians 3:26-29

26. You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27. for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Let the Holy Spirit have the Freedom to do whatever HE so desires to do.. just don't use Him as a command trick to combat some imaginary enemy of your divisionary tradition.

Stop living below whom God called you to be.
Identity Theft is tragic.

i agree with this but i would like for those on this post to answer the questions that i asked on the last forum before it was jacked. paul has answered them. it would be nice to know what each person on this post really thinks without to many words. yes or no would be nice sometimes.

You should have set it up as a poll

didnt set up. just asked a simple question.