Jude 2

First I will state that; I believe in education, its importance and the need of it especially in the ministry. My undergraduate degree is in Education, one of our son has been teaching high school for 20 years. Our oldest son teaches anthropology at a junior college and also teaches an upper division class at the University of California Riverside. So I am not anti education.

But I many times wonder when we say, he/she is really educated. Are we refering to the degrees, time served in a learning institution, or experience ?

Over the years I have worked with men and women with little formal training and was amazed at their knowledge and ability. I have been with some who have degrees upon degrees and have little if any ability to be effective as a leader. I have also seen the reverse.

I toss this out: Education is NOT the accumulation of information, facts both present or historical. Education cannot be measured by degrees or the lack of them. Education is relative to time and place and culture.

Any thoughts?

Considering that the 12 Apostles probably weren't holding many degrees I'd have to agree with you.

The gift of leadership is a necessity is it not?

Full Quiver wrote:Considering that the 12 Apostles probably weren't holding many degrees I'd have to agree with you.

The gift of leadership is a necessity is it not?

Show me a Biblical passage for the Gift of Leadership. Leadership is a combination of attributes, many of which can be learned. There is an anointing of those attributes that comes when God chooses a leader.

Real education is, as I see it, applied wisdom.

That entails experience and knowledge which may be "formally" and "informally" gained and tested.

I have a brother who didn't complete high school. He pulls down about six figures a year. He can sell ice to Eskimos -- because he'll figure out how they can use it, not because he's 'slick'.

I know a brother in the Lord who has a business degree and can think through some pretty complicated business strategies quickly. He's a got a calculator in his brain, too. He's currently working in ministry full-time, vocationally, has been for a few years now but has no visible propensity for what he's doing, from what I can tell. Whatever it is he is actually doing, it doesn't involve what he's learned. I don't question his calling or his obedience, but I offer him as a contrast.

Which one of these men is educated? Right now, I'd say the first one. In 3-5 years, I may have an entirely different assessment. Or not. Which one is God using? Well, right now, I'd say the second one. In 3-5 years, I may have an entirely different assessment. Or not.

Not only is "education" a little slippery when you get down to cases, it may not even be the qualification for the call. Just sayin'.

I saw a sign today that said, "As a society, we are bloated with data and starved for wisdom." Seems to fit quite well here.

I am back in school after 15 years. Finishing my degree in November. I have despised it. I have 15 years of management experience. The issue is that counts for nothing when trying to change careers. I will say this, "education" is a money racket. When I say this I am speaking about schools of course. The best education is work experience and your work record. I hired people for years and the first thing I looked at was work experience and time spent at one job. In other words if someone bounces around I would not hire them. As far as a minister I think education is again, overrated. Yes its important, but not that important. A minister that works hard and helps to grow church's should be as respected if not more than those with the letters after their name. All of this is an opinion of someone the resents the fact that they will be a few thousand dollars in debt yet will be able to say I have my degree. O well.

PG, Romans 12:6-8

The one that ruleth is one that leadeth!

I once had a teacher in Bible college who said, "One year of training at Bible School is worth 10 years of experience." After 30 years of ministry I will have to say, he was way off. In fact I would say the opposite is true. I learned more in my first year as a pastor than I learned in all of Bible College.
Having said that, I believe education is a great asset. I think programs should be practical instead of filling people's heads with useless knowledge. I have yet to see why taking a "Theology" class which focused on familiarizing students with crazy theories, does a minister any good. Familiarize them with only the true and they will be able to distinguish the false. Teach them practical things.
As far as teaching the Bible, Mel Hyatt said something the first day of one of his Bible classes that I will never forget. He said, "I'm not here to teach you everything or even everything I know. I am here to teach you how to learn." He did. Thanks Mel.

Pastorbps wrote:I once had a teacher in Bible college who said, "One year of training at Bible School is worth 10 years of experience." After 30 years of ministry I will have to say, he was way off. In fact I would say the opposite is true. I learned more in my first year as a pastor than I learned in all of Bible College.
Having said that, I believe education is a great asset. I think programs should be practical instead of filling people's heads with useless knowledge. I have yet to see why taking a "Theology" class which focused on familiarizing students with crazy theories, does a minister any good. Familiarize them with only the true and they will be able to distinguish the false. Teach them practical things.
As far as teaching the Bible, Mel Hyatt said something the first day of one of his Bible classes that I will never forget. He said, "I'm not here to teach you everything or even everything I know. I am here to teach you how to learn." He did. Thanks Mel.

For several weeks I have been giving thought to what constitutes Education. One word continues to come across my mind over and over. The word is discovery. This is what gave me thought to the fact that the accumulation of facts, and mans knowledge are no more than a map. It serves little purpose unless it leads me to the right destinaton to discover the right treasure that is laid up for my life.
Man cannot teach me how to discover truth, that must come from within me, which seems to echo what you mentioned Mel Hyatt said to you in class.
I see leaders educated more now than ever and more churches void of life transforming power. I see countries where their is little formal education like South America, Africa and many Asian countries exploding with salvations church growth and signs and wonders. While here the church with all its learning and the learned continue as a general rule, to decline.
I believe in Education, just wonder how we have been educating our people.

paul wrote:

Pastorbps wrote:I once had a teacher in Bible college who said, "One year of training at Bible School is worth 10 years of experience." After 30 years of ministry I will have to say, he was way off. In fact I would say the opposite is true. I learned more in my first year as a pastor than I learned in all of Bible College.
Having said that, I believe education is a great asset. I think programs should be practical instead of filling people's heads with useless knowledge. I have yet to see why taking a "Theology" class which focused on familiarizing students with crazy theories, does a minister any good. Familiarize them with only the true and they will be able to distinguish the false. Teach them practical things.
As far as teaching the Bible, Mel Hyatt said something the first day of one of his Bible classes that I will never forget. He said, "I'm not here to teach you everything or even everything I know. I am here to teach you how to learn." He did. Thanks Mel.

For several weeks I have been giving thought to what constitutes Education. One word continues to come across my mind over and over. The word is discovery. This is what gave me thought to the fact that the accumulation of facts, and mans knowledge are no more than a map. It serves little purpose unless it leads me to the right destinaton to discover the right treasure that is laid up for my life.
Man cannot teach me how to discover truth, that must come from within me, which seems to echo what you mentioned Mel Hyatt said to you in class.
I see leaders educated more now than ever and more churches void of life transforming power. I see countries where their is little formal education like South America, Africa and many Asian countries exploding with salvations church growth and signs and wonders. While here the church with all its learning and the learned continue as a general rule, to decline.
I believe in Education, just wonder how we have been educating our people.

we are training pastors and educated pastors yet the Holy Spirit is void in our church's. there is something wrong.

Exactly, how many pastors have a degree, or 2, or 3 but do not have the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

how may pastors are "Saved, Sanctified, and filled with the Holy Spirit", and still can't communicate an effective message of Gods Word?

My posting was not to insight the age old confrontation between the degreed vs un degreed. My purpose is to draw from you What real education is.
I am constantly looking at material we have in our schools and much of what comes across my desk and asking......will this really help? Is this what the pastors and leaders really need? Most of it is good, some is really good, but is it what is needed for them at this time, in their particular culture.

Recently I was given over two tirabytes of material....from many universities, organizations and ministries. Video, audio, books, articles. I have spent the past three months combing ( skimming ) thru some of it. These are major seminaries.. and so much just doesn't fit, doesn't really teach hands on application.

So to many of you pastors and leaders or anyone....Where you are right now...what do you wish you had been taught in Bible College, College Schools of ministry that you know (now) would have had a major impact for the better in your calling?

RamboPreacher wrote:how may pastors are "Saved, Sanctified, and filled with the Holy Spirit", and still can't communicate an effective message of Gods Word?

when you look back on the Heritage of COGOP and many other Spirit Filled Church's you will see uneducated men communicating the Gospel in the most effective way possible. Spirit Filled. I think that life experience is the best education, and its free. not easy but free. Again, I am completing my degree not because its necessary or because it will make me smarter....because it will not. I am completing it because the world around me says I must. It will not change how I preach or how I communicate. I refuse to proof read messages on Jude 2 to be grammatically correct or for spelling because I am not taking a test or turning in a book report. So to answer your question Paul, The best way to educate is to allow people to gain wisdom. Wisdom most of the time cannot be gained in a class room. Neither can experience. To much credit is given to those with letters after their name and not enough credit is given to those that succeed in life. You want to have dynamic church leaders.... pick dynamic leaders. Pastors with growing congregations with or without a degree.

Bro. Paul,

A common weakness for Pastors (regardless of preaching ability) is Administration. The legalities of handling and managing donated money. How to handle business meetings. How to deal with hard headed people like Dawgs. After pastoring my first church I decided that I needed more training in this area and pursued a degree in Organizational Management. This involved classes in accounting, team dynamics, leadership, and much more. These basic functions are left out of most seminaries and seem to cause the majority of church problems.

Blessings,
Daniel