Advice sought -- multitude of counselors kinda thing

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dolfan
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Advice sought -- multitude of counselors kinda thing

Postby dolfan » March 5th, 2013, 6:28 am

I would have put this on the BOW, but I had posted something there not long ago and I don't even think it was seen. And, this is something a little less private anyway.

I'll frame this as a hypothetical. So....suppose ---

You are a business owner and you sell all kinds of widgets and stuff. Someone, a regular customer, who has a position of authority in his government job, and who also is a pastor, is caught stealing your widgets. Not once. Not twice. Lots and lots of widgets. In fact, you've tried to give him every benefit of the doubt, but you can't hold your silence any longer. You've got him on video stealing your widgets and just widget-thieving to beat the band. You could have stopped him earlier, but you wanted the very best of the best video of him stealing. He was so good at it that he figured out your camera angles and -- except for the few times at his boldest and brashest moments -- you see widgets disappear from the shelf and his hand go into his coat pocket, but he's clever enough to insert widget into pocket without a direct camera shot. But, he also leaves the widget aisle with nothing in his hand and no widgets lying on the floor where he stood. It is just a case where widgets seem to disappear into thin air after he grabs him 2 or three and puts his hand in his pocket. Except, he also makes some errors and you get some direct video of him and his widget-wizardry which amounts to plain old theft of property in the third degree.

You put together a video compilation of his greatest widget hits and you file a police report, show the videos to the police and the police say, "We warmly invite you to seek your warrant for his arrest."

Next day, Widget Bandit returns to your locale and has made his way through your establishment without, so far, pocketing widgets. In fact, he has one in his hand when you greet him and invite him to sit down for a confrontation. [YOU, in this next section, are the unbelieving, older brother in the business with you, who later explains to you that he has been so troubled with what to do about this that he cannot explain it, but feels sorry for the guy instead of "p****d off at him like I would normally be"; said brother does not know that he is being prayed for for that exact purpose :) ]. So, YOU have the confrontation with Widget Bandit, who comes clean, admits to stealing north of $500 worth of widgets (which, at the pace he's been blazing for a month, means he's been stealing widgets for about two or three months, which means you need more surveillance cameras in your widget bidness), and begs you not to tell his employer. Only, YOU know his employer and you've already talked to his employer because his employer happens to be your uncle's ex-wife. Such is life in your small town.

A tentative agreement is reached. Bandit is to pay widget business around $700 or so, because you figure rightfully that he has stolen more from you than he is even willing to admit now because that's how people are. You won't press charges. But, you tell him, "You have to resign your government job." Only, bandit is not really willing to go quite that far even though he knows you've got him. He also sorta doesn't know his goose is already cooked when he gets to work, but you ain't getting in the middle of that anymore because his employer feels you when you tell his employer you want to be merciful to this guy.

NOW --- here's the deal. [YOU, in this part, is .... well, just pretend it is me.] YOU want the guy to walk away from pastoring. YOU figure his congregation is unaware of his sin. YOU also figure two things. Number one, he is doing grave harm to your brothers and sisters but you are not part of their church or denomination. Two, you have read the proverb that getting involved in someone else's dispute is like picking a dog up by the ears. And, you figure a third thing --- although your wife is pleading with you to reach out to the bandit and talk with him about his need to repent and be in fear of God's judgment and your wife wants you to be proactive in doing so, you are also sensitive to the Spirit of God and you sense that HE is saying that is crossing a boundary and that the battle there is not yours to enter. Only, you can't really line that up with any real scriptural truth, and you decide, "Hey, I think I'll share this with some people whose opinions I value on the internet. Everybody knows you can trust the internet!" :)

Would you approach the widget bandit as someone who comes to him in a Matthew 18 kind of way? Or, would you just not go there? Or, something else?
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).

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Postby dolfan » March 6th, 2013, 7:11 am

I had a PM from a J2 friend who offered some input. I wanted to share my response to that. This person has valid points. I want to sort of publicly weigh my thoughts in response, so I'm sharing my return PM here:

At this point, we have chosen to have mercy [from a legal side of it, I meant in the response] while we get restitution. I know that the core of us wants justice. I do, too. And, he is facing serious consequences -- loss of his job for one.

My question is really whether I should confront him about his pastorate. I'm of the mind that I won't unless I am sure from the Word that I should go all the way through Matthew 18's process. My hesitation is that I sense from God as "whoa" sign, and then as an "outsider" to his local church, whether that is my proper place to even bring it up to them. Yet, they ARE my brothers and sisters just as even you are to me. So, I don't want to see them harmed by this guy who is caught and sorry he was caught, but not necessarily repentant and certainly is at the point of having brought an open shame on himself and to the name of the Lord. Judgment is coming upon him in many ways, so I'm not overly concerned with punishment from law enforcement's side of it. I want to see the guy repent and be broken before God for the purpose of saving him. That's real justice as I understand it, biblically. I just don't know whether I am the one who should push that forward spiritually.


Thoughts?
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).

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PastorDaniel
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Postby PastorDaniel » March 10th, 2013, 11:42 pm

If he is stealing from you...he is probably now...or would in the future steal from the church...

If charges were filed it would be in the paper and they would know...but you are not filing charges...

This is very tough...

Chances are he will be found out...just know that if you do the reveal it could cause you more heartache for your "bidness"...as you called it :D
Pastor Daniel :D

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Postby oletimer » March 12th, 2013, 12:57 pm

He sounds of "legal repentance" to me. To let him to get by with this will do neither him nor his church any good. If he had Godly sorrow, working with would save a brother. God be with you in this.
God Bless

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Postby Shellie » March 13th, 2013, 1:01 am

I think it should be made known. Facing our wrongs is sometimes the only thing that will correct them.
There never was a horse that couldn't be rode and there never was a cowboy that couldn't be throwed.

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dolfan
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Postby dolfan » March 13th, 2013, 4:55 pm

Lets say you decide, in this hypothetical, to confront, but you know that there are no other believers who will serve as a witness with you of the wrong done. The instruction in Matthew 18:16 is based on the one in Deuteronomy 19:17. No one is to be held accountable based on the word of one witness. In the mouth of two or three witnesses is the fact of the sin to be established.

If you cannot run the string on this kind of situation, does it make the proverb I cited before about picking up a dog between the ears more pertinent?
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).

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dolfan
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Postby dolfan » March 13th, 2013, 4:55 pm

Lets say you decide, in this hypothetical, to confront, but you know that there are no other believers who will serve as a witness with you of the wrong done. The instruction in Matthew 18:16 is based on the one in Deuteronomy 19:17. No one is to be held accountable based on the word of one witness. In the mouth of two or three witnesses is the fact of the sin to be established.

If you cannot run the string on this kind of situation, does it make the proverb I cited before about picking up a dog between the ears more pertinent?
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).

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scooter
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You still have the tape?

Postby scooter » March 14th, 2013, 1:42 am

If you still have the video...there is more than one witness. lol
What we need here is a good revival! lol

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scooter
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NT

Postby scooter » March 14th, 2013, 1:42 am

NT scripture...Them that sin rebuke before all. :shock:
What we need here is a good revival! lol

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Postby HogWild » March 14th, 2013, 1:15 pm

It seems to me, IMHO, that you've already got a pretty good idea as to what you should do. You seem to be sensing in your spirit the need to wait. Maybe the time to share with his church will present itself later; but for now what's the harm in trusting that "whoa"?

We want mercy for ourselves but judgement for everyone else...
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dolfan
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Postby dolfan » March 14th, 2013, 6:02 pm

Things cleared up a bit. What I was wrestling over is apparently taking care of itself, as I understand it. And, I had hoped so.
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).


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