Jude 2

We seem to be pushing this issue around a lot...and I wondered just how differently we all felt. If I were a gambling man, I'd say 99% of us were somewhere in the middle and the argument is over minute points anyway.

I'm extremely sleepy right now, so I hope this makes some sense.

One thought I had about this, where some confusion may lie in the subject - where people may mistakenly believe actual demons exist in/on/around Christians because of behaviors that continue after they are born again...

I remember reading a story, I think it was in Intercessory Prayer (I could be wrong about the source), about the farmer who found the calf that was tied up, in an attempt to be stolen, and when he untied him, he was in some kind of state of shock or something, and remained in the tie-up position, unable to realize he was no longer bound. The comparison being how some Christians are unable to realize their full freedom from sin when they are born again, and continue to have an area of bondage, because of the pattern of behavior/sin/stronghold established in their mind that isn't changed when their spirit is born again.

In that case, a prayer consisting of reaffirming scriptures, declaring who we are in Christ, our authority, etc, dealing with issues such as our innabilities at times (even after we are born again) to have proper/accurate belief, I can see how that could help in select situations. I can see how that could help me in certain areas. The profit I saw in that one good example of a prayer (provided by jdavis) was that it was a good exercise in encouraging proper believing... which could go a long way in re-training a mind that had established patterns of behaviors from a former time.

I think IF GOD wants to deliver someone from something, HE can do it anyway HE wants to.

My biggest problem with it is that some people think it HAS to be a certain way - that God can only work in their box.

My second biggest problem with it is that some things that would be called "oppression" might be something that is happening to us so that we can learn something and it is not part of God's plan to "deliver" us from it. We assume that He always would want us to be "delivered" and I don't see that in scripture - what I do see is that He will help us through it. As he told Paul when he refused to remove the thorn, "my grace is sufficient". Why do we try to solve everything?

I think it is highly instructive that in scripture, Jesus never healed or cast demons out of anyone the same way twice. It's speculation on my part, but I think He did it the way he did specifically so that his follwers would place their faith in HIM, not the words they said or the motions of their hands or whatever else might take place in a situation where God used them in similar fashion.

There is a word for people who recite words in a specific order or according to a formula in order to achieve supernatural results; that word is witch. Witches have to rely on formulas and incantations to cause the results they desire. Christians, on the other hand, rely on God to cause the results He desires, then they shout for joy over them just like all the morning stars did when He caused all creation to come into being. That is the difference between Christianity and the WOF movement, which most of this ridiculous "Deliverance for Christians" garbage came out of. WOF people want to shape and excercise control over their own reality, whereas Christians want to give control over to God. The difference gets lost in the shuffle sometimes, but it is exactly the same as trying to cast out spirits of alcohol, nicotine, dejection, anger, etc and so on. You might as well just say "I cast out the flesh" for all th3e good it will do. God might actually take things like that away from a person(I know folks He has done so for) but not because of a formulaic prayer said according to a preset pattern. God is God, and no one else is, and reciting incantory prayers will not allow anyone to take His place.

Vande

Mike Vande wrote:I think it is highly instructive that in scripture, Jesus never healed or cast demons out of anyone the same way twice. It's speculation on my part, but I think He did it the way he did specifically so that his follwers would place their faith in HIM, not the words they said or the motions of their hands or whatever else might take place in a situation where God used them in similar fashion.

There is a word for people who recite words in a specific order or according to a formula in order to achieve supernatural results; that word is witch. Witches have to rely on formulas and incantations to cause the results they desire. Christians, on the other hand, rely on God to cause the results He desires, then they shout for joy over them just like all the morning stars did when He caused all creation to come into being. That is the difference between Christianity and the WOF movement, which most of this ridiculous "Deliverance for Christians" garbage came out of. WOF people want to shape and excercise control over their own reality, whereas Christians want to give control over to God. The difference gets lost in the shuffle sometimes, but it is exactly the same as trying to cast out spirits of alcohol, nicotine, dejection, anger, etc and so on. You might as well just say "I cast out the flesh" for all th3e good it will do. God might actually take things like that away from a person(I know folks He has done so for) but not because of a formulaic prayer said according to a preset pattern. God is God, and no one else is, and reciting incantory prayers will not allow anyone to take His place.

Vande

Response: I've always thought that the catholic's chanting of the Lords prayer or hail Mary sounded evil.

Is that just me or has anybody else felt the same way?

Kenya wrote:I think IF GOD wants to deliver someone from something, HE can do it anyway HE wants to.

My biggest problem with it is that some people think it HAS to be a certain way - that God can only work in their box.

My second biggest problem with it is that some things that would be called "oppression" might be something that is happening to us so that we can learn something and it is not part of God's plan to "deliver" us from it. We assume that He always would want us to be "delivered" and I don't see that in scripture - what I do see is that He will help us through it. As he told Paul when he refused to remove the thorn, "my grace is sufficient". Why do we try to solve everything?

Response: I think there is a balance here that has to be found.

Paul did pray that he would be delivered, as he believed the Lord would answer. An answer did come. So I would say if after commiting something into the Lords faithful hands and ACTUALLY getting an answer that his grace was sufficent for that topic then and only then should we think that circumstance won't change.

It seems to me one of the Lords main missions was to bring true deliverance. I wonder how many are in situations the Lord wants to change but they just muttle through THINKING God wants them to endure every bad thing.

Pray first, pray again, again then endure.

Michael wrote:

It seems to me one of the Lords main missions was to bring true deliverance. I wonder how many are in situations the Lord wants to change but they just muttle through THINKING God wants them to endure every bad thing.

Pray first, pray again, again then endure.

Would you offer some examples of what people are seeking to be delivered from. I don't quite understand the concept. I thought we were all delivered when we got saved:

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Response: I guess the major assumption is that one would be a part of "US".

There would be most of the N.T. that deals with the bewitching of believers, strife, envy, hatred etc.

All of these in the church. I don't see how someone can't see.

Why would there be a need for any of the letters to the churches if all were completed at their first profession of belief?

That I'm sure opens another can of worms.

If you believe once saved "professing belief in Christ" always eternally saved there is no reason for you to believe anything else.

Thats is the core of why these topics are hot topics.

The assumption of OSAS is to me the fundamental flaw in understanding spiritual matters.

Michael wrote:...but rather to believe that one is delivered of these things and just to walk in that deliverance.

I think you are touching on the point I was trying to make above... maybe? A matter of accurate 'believing'...

Why would Jesus teach people to pray "deliver us from evil."?

Just like if someone wrongs you today you need to forgive them.

Else you begin to walk in unforgiveness and give place to the enemy.

Father forgive us AS we forgive others.

There is a healthy balance as well as an extreme on most issues.

There is not a demon behind every door but there are christians in need of deliverance.

We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against spiritual wickedness.

There are many IF's in walking in the spirit.

There is a race, walk, fight, course all of which our enemy does not want to see us complete. However the finish line is at the end not at the beginning.

"IF" we hold fast to the profession of our faith.

That is the biggest "IF".

It makes sense that Paul would write (below) about the warring inside his/our minds because he had the same daily struggles with problems we do. He wanted to do "good" but he still failed sometimes. Does this mean he needed deliverance? I guess that's a play on words. We all need to deny ourself and carry His (Jesus') cross... so in that respect, I guess we need "deliverance" from our self.

(Parts of Rom 7:19-25)
For the good that I would do, I do not: ... the evil which I would not do, that I do. ....
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am!
Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The message I'm discovering is that while we know it is Jesus who "delivers" us, Paul says we will still have problems with the flesh and the flesh will cause us to be "at war" until we die.

scooter wrote:Why would Jesus teach people to pray "deliver us from evil."?

Odd that he thought that phrase was sufficient.

Hey Father, Deliver us form evil!!


As they used to say in the old Marvel comics of the Kirby/Lee era:

'Nuff said.

Gerald Creasy wrote:

scooter wrote:Why would Jesus teach people to pray "deliver us from evil."?

Odd that he thought that phrase was sufficient.

Hey Father, Deliver us form evil!!


As they used to say in the old Marvel comics of the Kirby/Lee era:

'Nuff said.

Response: God is great God is good, now I lay me down to sleep sound familiar?

The Lords prayer is in no way meant to be a cover all blanket prayer but rather a pattern and beginning.

What it does show us though is a need for forgiveness and deliverance.

Do you still say Now I lay me or God is great? If not why not?

Oh I forgot. Nuff said.

I don't believe any prayer should be just a formula, but only when we truely pray from our heart is it effective, and then the words don't really matter much.

I think I have realized my biggest problem with all this deliverance stuff.

It all seems to put the focus on the darkness and evil we face, rather than just seeking Christ, and keeping our eyes upon him. If we just follow where He's leading, we will be delivered. All the hurt I have seen from this type of ministry and it's focus on demons really seem to draw our attention everywhere but where it should be.

I think we could all learn a lesson from Lot's wife.

Pastor Bill wrote:I think I have realized my biggest problem with all this deliverance stuff.

It all seems to put the focus on the darkness and evil we face, rather than just seeking Christ, and keeping our eyes upon him. If we just follow where He's leading, we will be delivered. All the hurt I have seen from this type of ministry and it's focus on demons really seem to draw our attention everywhere but where it should be.

I think we could all learn a lesson from Lot's wife.

Amen, dude. If we have the authority to cast out demons, "Hey, get out", a simple command (unaccompanied by shouting, chicken walking, verbally ballyhooing our authority, flinging holy water, or any other frou-frou) really ought to be enough for most situations. And if there is an instance where fasting and prayer is needed for an exorcism(as Jesus said ther would be), we'll know it when we see it. What need is there to dwell on this mischegoss when it is Jesus who is the supply for our every need, including the authority to cast out devils?

Vande

Mike Vande wrote:

Pastor Bill wrote:I think I have realized my biggest problem with all this deliverance stuff.

It all seems to put the focus on the darkness and evil we face, rather than just seeking Christ, and keeping our eyes upon him. If we just follow where He's leading, we will be delivered. All the hurt I have seen from this type of ministry and it's focus on demons really seem to draw our attention everywhere but where it should be.

I think we could all learn a lesson from Lot's wife.

Amen, dude. If we have the authority to cast out demons, "Hey, get out", a simple command (unaccompanied by shouting, chicken walking, verbally ballyhooing our authority, flinging holy water, or any other frou-frou) really ought to be enough for most situations. And if there is an instance where fasting and prayer is needed for an exorcism(as Jesus said ther would be), we'll know it when we see it. What need is there to dwell on this mischegoss when it is Jesus who is the supply for our every need, including the authority to cast out devils?

Vande

Now don't get me wrong brother, I don't believe alot of this stuff is really demons, much of what people are being "delivered" from is their own lusts and temptations. While there is a need to get a handle on these things, I wouldn't attribute it all to demons.

James 1:14 wrote:But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.