once again John Cal is out the door when the NCAA comes

[TC]

for you John Cal fans who said, that he has never done anything wrong. it is very funny that everytime he has left some place they end up in a mess with the NCAA. Any other coach and it would fall on the coach that he should have been in charge of his players and his team.

He left UMass, NCAA came in and vacated the wins and the final four. but Cal didn't know anything. NOW he leaves Memphis and the NCAA comes calling again and their finals run and wins could be vacated again.

When do people start holding cal responsible for things that happened under his watch. But I forget because he is now with the kittens he can do no wrong.... at least no wrong that they won't excuse or cover up.


http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2009/may/27/ncaa-alleges-major-violations-memphis-basketball-p/

[Rob]

Tony the problem I have with your post is this. The player in question is Rose, and what amazes me about this is that the NCAA clearing house has to clear High School Transcripts and ACT/SAT scores before a student is allowed to play. Obviously, the NCAA clear Rose, and now the NCAA wants to come back two years later and say they have found something wrong. Somebody must not be doing their job at the NCAA offices or they would have found this two years ago, before Rose ever played.

The other thing that bothers me that I think is more interesting is the money that was given to an associate of Rose who traveled with Memphis, why is that not be discussed or investagated?

[dolfan]

When the NCAA forfeits USC's national championship when R. Bush was playing there, hits it with losses of, ohhhh, 20 scholarships over 4 years, and forfeits at least one season's worth of victories, and does the same to FSU for last season, then and only then can anyone say they are justified by punishing anyone else for anything else.

Personally, I wish the whole SEC would pull out of the NCAA and start its own association. If we could get the ACC to come too, the NCAA would be hist-o-ry.

[TC]

Tony the problem I have with your post is this. The player in question is Rose, and what amazes me about this is that the NCAA clearing house has to clear High School Transcripts and ACT/SAT scores before a student is allowed to play. Obviously, the NCAA clear Rose, and now the NCAA wants to come back two years later and say they have found something wrong. Somebody must not be doing their job at the NCAA offices or they would have found this two years ago, before Rose ever played.

The other thing that bothers me that I think is more interesting is the money that was given to an associate of Rose who traveled with Memphis, why is that not be discussed or investagated?

Rob, while for the most part I hate the NCAA, it sounds like you are saying since they missed the first time they should not be allowed to come back and get him later. I totally disagree because that would allow the GOOD cheaters to get by because they are good at it.

I think the reason the ncaa is coming back is because the scores have such a wide rage between the two. I think the NCAA just looks at the numbers submitted. I think Cal is as dirty as they come he just never gets his fingerprints on it. The NCAA has a history of coming back on people. Lasage at Louisville was cleared to play played a few games and then they came back on him because he played for his national team before he came to the US. THey paid for his Room and Board, the NCAA later declared that was an added bennie. THe sad thing is he never knew any of the NCAA rules because he was not in the US. That would be fine if the did the same for everyone. He lost his whole college career, YET if you are a US kid you can take thousands of dollars and if you give it back the worst you have to do is sit a few games.

the guy with Rose was his brother, it will be brought up with the NCAA sooner or later. If it was just a friend they might be able to pass it off, but a family member NO WAY. UofL's Scooter McCray left his Credit Card to secure a room for a players dad (who was already at UofL) It was not supposed to be used, but just to secure since the dad did not have a Credit card. THe hotel used it by mistake, then realized it and credited it that very same day. But to the NCAA it was a Major Violation.

UofK has already sent in a list of "minor violations" of players taking free food and other gifts from several different sports.

The problem with the ncaa is they are selective in their punishments. USC...Notre Dame.. NOTHING.... Alabama get beat over the head. The problem is that USC no one will talk to NCAA.... Why should they the NCAA has no power over anyone but coaches and current players. It won't change until the NCAA makes a Deal with the NBA, NFL that says if you are a player and caught Cheating in the NCAA you will be required to sit out of the league until you serve the NCAA punishment. Or the Coaches must sit those number of years until he can coach again. Another thing is the NCAA should make a rule, if you are the Head Coach of a program and violations occur, even if you had no part in it the violations go with you if you leave. If you make the punishment not with the risk coaches will not let his happen.

I think it was so funny that Brainfart tried to get out in front of this and said they talked to the NCAA and the NCAA said he was not a target and such, and then the NCAA came out and said they did not talk to anyone about it. THe funny thing is the investigation is just starting, he might not be a target but he could get busted in the end. And what is worst is now the NCAA will be watching the kittens recurits like a hawk. And Last I heard three of the kids he signed don't have the scores yet to go to the kittens.

I would LOVE for Rose to come out and spill the beans, Why not it can not hurt him, memphis has not real ties for him. I think it would be funny to see.

[Rob]

Tony, I guess I did not make myself clear enough. Here's the problem I have, again. Before a student athlete is allowed to play for any college, the NCAA has a clearing house. They are responsible for a students transcripts, ACT/SAT test scores. In this case, the NCAA cleared Rose. Now two years later, they (the NCAA) wants to come back and say we found some inconsistences. I have a problem with that. It would be like an official, not calling a foul on a play, then coming back a play later and say, wait a minute I missed a foul on the former play. Or calling a pitch a ball and then the next pitch say, I missed the former pitch it should have been a strike. You can't do that.

There is no one that governs the NCAA. You cleared the kid to play don't come back 2 years later and say something's wrong.

Another thing is the NCAA should make a rule, if you are the Head Coach of a program and violations occur, even if you had no part in it the violations go with you if you leave.

Tony would you like to be responsible at work for a mistake that you are not responsible for?

I know, I don't want to be held responsible for something I'm not responsible for. No coach is responsible to get a kid through the clearing house! That is the Athletic Department's responsiblity.

I still think there was something wrong with the $2500 dollars that were giving to a traveling party with Rose. I wish they could/would prove that some some heat could be put on Cal.

Looks like your boy Kiffen at UT keeps getting himself in trouble. Looks like Al Davis is not as crazy as we all thought.

[TC]

so Rob what do you propose, that if you cheat and you are good enough to get away with it long enough for the NCAA to clear you, than once you are clear than nothing can happen?

I know more about UofL players but I know it happens else where. but just like Marvin Stone. He was cleared and played at Uk but he comes to UofL and then BAM the NCAA is on his door step, they made him sit out over half of the season... OH WAIT, they didn't make his sit, they told UofL that if he played and was LATER ruled ineligible then we would have to forfit those wins as well as any money. They kept him out for something they said happened four years earlier. They had this big FEDEX signature where Marvin Stone got a Package from some big wheel In Louisville. Later to find out a GUY NAMED marvin stone got a package from a business in Louisville. NOTHING TO DO WITH stone or UofL.

I rarely come down on the Side of the NCAA, but there is no way the NCAA can make sure every kid has not cheated on any test they have ever taken. Just think the Kitten fans are saying there is no way that Cal could have known, Well I think it is the College and the Coach that needs to make sure of these things are done correctly and if they are not they should pay the price.

Part of being the Head Coach is you are the Head of the program. The Old saying is" Show me your friends and I will show you your future" While It is different when it comes to missing a call or someone else at a job does something wrong. BUT I bet you dollars to doughnuts, If you are in a business and something illegal is done, they might prosecute the company but I guarantee they will prosecute the guy who was in charge.

I can give you once, but after that it needs to be on the Coach, he needs to make sure the rules are followed. He needs to make sure those he hired follow the rules, those he recruits follows the rules. What does that say about Cal that all he can say is "he" never broke any rules but those around him have. He throws anyone under the bus to advance his career. Which to me I have never thought he was that great a coach. really think about it his final fours will be vacated because he had star players who broke the rules.... No stars no telling if he could have got to the final four... Hey just think he could not get it done with players who were breaking rules so what happens when he is force to follow the rules.

I have been out of the loop on Kiffen I hear he has been ticking people off, I heard he was flapping his gums like he was Stevie boy, but has yet to back anything up. But UT football is Like kitten Basketball, he wants to fire up the base, get 106k Rocking, he talk is getting them going.

[Rob]

Tony here is what I suggest, the NCAA should do their job right the first time, then they would not have to come back on any kid 2,3,4 years later.

I rarely come down on the Side of the NCAA, but there is no way the NCAA can make sure every kid has not cheated on any test they have ever taken.

That is their job!!! Do it, do it right. If you clear a kid to play, then don't come down on a school or a coach because they (NCAA) didn't do their job.

Well I think it is the College and the Coach that needs to make sure of these things are done correctly and if they are not they should pay the price.

Are you saying Tony, that a college coach should be present to make sure that the kid takes the test and no one sits in for him? That the coach then grades the test to make sure the score is correct? Man you talking about opening a can of worms that would do it. The College gets the test results, and High School Transcripts, and turns them over to the NCAA clearing house to clear the kid to play. What else do you want the schools to do? I mean you have 4/5 coaches for basketball, 15/20 for football, sure they can go sit and watch and do all this they have nothing better to do.

Part of being the Head Coach is you are the Head of the program.

You don't honestly believe that statement do you?

I agree totally that if the coach has done something wrong he needs to pay. An example of that is the recent firing of Tim Floyd, he did something wrong. Gave $1000 dollars to someone with O.J. Mayo. He needs to pay. However, if a coach has been proved innocent, by the NCAA, I think that means he did nothing wrong. If it can't be proven, regardless of what you or I think, a man is innocent.

Here's what I believe, is that the NCAA needs to do a better job than what they are doing. Either that, or give the conferences more control over individual member schools, and allow them to do greater investigations. Then all conferences to enforce rules, dish out punishments. Hopefully that will stop a lot of this cheating!

[TC]

the NCAA should do their job right the first time, then they would not have to come back on any kid 2,3,4 years later

From what I have read the NCAA clearing house is just a division of the NCAA. Every University has to make sure that a kid qualifies to attend that University. It does not matter if they are an athlete or not. Since they are already doing that as part of their job, and Since they are members of the NCAA they are/were supposed to make sure it is done correctly. The Student and the Universty file paperwork that states they have done the work to qualify, the NCAA Clearing house takes the University at its word that it has been correctly. This is done for every student athlete, there is no way the NCAA could check every student want to play college sports. that is why the University is check documents before they send to NCAA.

You are saying it is too much for the University to sit there and watch each student take a test. But you are saying the NCAA should know?

That is their job!!! Do it, do it right. If you clear a kid to play, then don't come down on a school or a coach because they (NCAA) didn't do their job.

That is the problem, they Coach and the School are the ones supposed to do this, that is their Job as members of the NCAA. THe NCAA is job is to spot check and on this spot check something came up. It is like the IRS, just because they don't find it in this tax year does not mean you get of scott free.

You are saying that the colleges can't do it, because there is not enough people at the college, well there are actually less at the NCAA. Again there are 100's of Thousands of kids wanting to play some type of college sports, and that happens each year. There is NO WAY the NCAA could check every students record in time for each to participate when the school year begins. Then you put in the fact that Gaduation is usually in may or June, and then College starting in mid to late August. How do you expect that to get done unless the University does it. Do you think we should just do stuff on the honor system?

You don't honestly believe that statement do you?

Yes I do think that a very big part of being Head coach is making sure the people you add your program are following the rules. WHo do you think runs that specific sports program

An example of that is the recent firing of Tim Floyd, he did something wrong. Gave $1000 dollars to someone with O.J. Mayo. He needs to pay. However, if a coach has been proved innocent, by the NCAA, I think that means he did nothing wrong. If it can't be proven, regardless of what you or I think, a man is innocent.

So because Cal never specificly told someone to take roses test, that is fine, He is in the clear. By Your example, as long as no one at the university does anything them self they are clean. By your example if a booster give a kid money, the only one who should be punished is the kid since the school and University had no knowledge, By your example. if a Kid is shaving points as long as the Coach or University had nothing to do with it, it should not cost them a thing. By your example a coach needs to just not get his hands dirty and then he is fine.

A great Example is if a service member does someting against the law, just one, he gets punished, if it happens again it becomes a Pattern and then his boss is then called to the carpet. It goes up the chain of command.

Again I can see one time, a something can happen and a Coach not know but after that it is on the Coach. Ok on the UK level, Hal Mummie was never found guilty of anything, neither was Eddie Sutton but both lost thier job because it happend under "their watch"

Just like Cal and the plane rides for someone, (which was Roses Brother) To beleive Cal didn't know you have to believe that
1. Cal is blind and never saw the guy.
2. Cal never rode the same plane with the team nor did he go into the same locker room as the kids, nor did he take the same bus from the hotels to the games.
3. Cal turned the other way to NOT see these things.
4. Cal didn't care what went on because his fingerprints were not on it.
5. Cal is a total idiot and has no clue of what is going on in the program he is being paid to be incharge of.

Here's what I believe, ......... Either that, or give the conferences more control over individual member schools, and allow them to do greater investigations. Then all conferences to enforce rules, dish out punishments. Hopefully that will stop a lot of this cheating

And you actually believe that? The conferences are not being told they can not investigate member schools for wrong doing. History has shown that the Conferences dish out punishments based on their bottom dollar.

There is no way you believe that the ACC will put the ax to FSU football for all of the things that has happened there. The problem is there is no way the big conferences will ban bowl games, or NCAA tourney appearances for cheaters, because the that is how the rake in the money. There is no way the SEC will punish a team for rules breaking on the honor system that the Pac ten will do the same for their teams.


Here is what I think needs to be done to stop cheating.
1. Yes the NCAA needs to do a better job all the way around
2. I think the rules need to be set in stone not different rules for same crimes
3. you take money you lose the rest of your career no matter the amount or when you do it
4 If Cheating goes on at a program the Coach must take the same punishment as the School. If school on two years probation then the coach should be allowed to coach at any school in any position until sits out of coaching for the same two years.
5. If a school is found to have cheated, the coach of that program should be able to fire that coach with No buy out

To me the NCAA's problem is they are not the same with every school and every player. Until they get that resolved issues will continue come up because there is no set standard.

[Rob]

From what I have read the NCAA clearing house is just a division of the NCAA. Every University has to make sure that a kid qualifies to attend that University. It does not matter if they are an athlete or not. Since they are already doing that as part of their job, and Since they are members of the NCAA they are/were supposed to make sure it is done correctly.

From my understanding that is correct, but therein lies the problem. It is not the University that is coming back and said we didn't do our job, it's the NCAA. No student athlete can play until cleared, and then the NCAA, not the school, that says we found a mistake in what they already approved.

The Student and the Universty file paperwork that states they have done the work to qualify, the NCAA Clearing house takes the University at its word that it has been correctly.

Not sure that is a correct statement. I don't think the NCAA clearing house takes their word, they also do research to make sure the paperwork is correct

You are saying it is too much for the University to sit there and watch each student take a test. But you are saying the NCAA should know?

Yes, that is what I'm saying, because you and I would be surprised at who is taking a test for who.

It is like the IRS, just because they don't find it in this tax year does not mean you get of scott free.

I know folks who have fought the IRS who has tired to come back on them, and IRS lost!

There is NO WAY the NCAA could check every students record in time for each to participate when the school year begins.

Then who clears them to play? Are you telling me the NCAA simply "rubber stamps" everything every University does?

Do you think we should just do stuff on the honor system?

I suggest one of two things. First, Freshman are ineligible to play. Or second, and I think this really needs to be looked into, NFL does it, now the NBA needs to do it, that you can not enter the NBA until you have been out of High School for 2 years. Kids who are "one and done" kids don't have to attend class after Christmas. What a joke is that?

Yes I do think that a very big part of being Head coach is making sure the people you add your program are following the rules. WHo do you think runs that specific sports program

In each athletic program you have a person[s] who is the compliance officer, that person has several that work with them, that is responsible for seeing that program is ran according to the rules. It is normally a person in the compliance office that turns in a school and a specific athletic program. I have never heard of a coach saying, opps I did wrong better call the NCAA and turn myself in. The Coach is responsible for Coaching/Recruiting, his staff, players as well.

So because Cal never specificly told someone to take roses test, that is fine, He is in the clear. By Your example, as long as no one at the university does anything them self they are clean. By your example if a booster give a kid money, the only one who should be punished is the kid since the school and University had no knowledge, By your example. if a Kid is shaving points as long as the Coach or University had nothing to do with it, it should not cost them a thing. By your example a coach needs to just not get his hands dirty and then he is fine.

Man I thought if you were innocent, you are innocent. Guess I missed that in law class. Or if what you are saying is correct you are guilty until proven innocent, which seems to be the ways things work in our world today. I still believe that a person is innocent until they are proven guilty. Sometimes I don't like it, but that is why I chose to live in this country instead of somewhere else.

And you actually believe that? The conferences are not being told they can not investigate member schools for wrong doing.

Yes I believe that. Is C-USA investigating Memphis? Is the PAC-10 investigating USC? The answer is no it's the NCAA.

The problem is there is no way the big conferences will ban bowl games, or NCAA tourney appearances for cheaters, because the that is how the rake in the money.

Now, I think you have hit the nail on the head. We both know that the almighty dollar is the bottom line. The old saying, he who has the gold rules. And you are right, not conference is going to cut off their nose in spite of their face. If the NCAA would do to FSU like they did to SMU a few years ago for their cheating, and not just FSU but whomever is guilty give them the death penatly there will continue to be those that cheat.

Here is what I think needs to be done to stop cheating.
1. Yes the NCAA needs to do a better job all the way around

I agree

2. I think the rules need to be set in stone not different rules for same crimes

I agree again

3. you take money you lose the rest of your career no matter the amount or when you do it

Are you talking about kids in college or the pros? If in college I would agree, if in the pros, I feel that the money must be paid to the general scholarship fund.

4 If Cheating goes on at a program the Coach must take the same punishment as the School. If school on two years probation then the coach should be allowed to coach at any school in any position until sits out of coaching for the same two years.

If the coach is found to have direct knowledge or be directly involved I would agree. If not, then I don't agree. Only thing I would add is this, if a coach leaves a school and is hired by another school and the coach has been involved then that school is also placed on probation, that would give a little more teeth to what you are saying.

5. If a school is found to have cheated, the coach of that program should be able to fire that coach with No buy out

If the coach is involved yes, but if the school cheated, no