Conservative COGOP churches

[Pastor Gary]

I prefer not to list and the against.........rather what I am for

World Mission Outreach Fellowship
World Outreach International Bible College

AMEN Paul! That is why I proudly have your credentials framed and displayed on my office among my COGOP credentials.

Pastor Gary you do not ever turn anyone out anymore? Regardless of what is done no discipline?

Wow... talk about jumping to a conclusion! Please tell me what has been said in this discussion that made you think church discipline was no longer utilized.

[pastorables]

Pastor Gary is right in what he's saying. I remember that jewelry was wrong to wear but SO's that would show off their $500 watches and drive a mercedes. You don't find that hypocritical?

Yep! I can remember wearing my alligator boots to the Assembly and being thankful they weren't on the list with the gold...

pa

[one love]

so you could not go because the 29 teachings were to hard but you would be able to stay with homosexuality and sin???????

I thought I answered this. But I will answer again. I was spiritual immature. I was, although I was raised in a pew, too young and immature. I felt that if I couldn't live up to the church's standards that I might as well just not try at all. Today, I am more mature and grounded in Christ and unless Christ tells me to move, I don't move!

Pastor Gary is right in what he's saying. I remember that jewelry was wrong to wear but SO's that would show off their $500 watches and drive a mercedes. You don't find that hypocritical?

I'm glad that we have a better understanding of the Word today. And I am happy to be a member and ordained minister in the COGOP.

First I would drive a Benz, caddy, or any other car as long as it is not beyond my means. I love a Bmw M5 but $85,000 IS a little much. Some assume I drive nice cars, but they are average.

Anyway, Stevenson just gave the answer I was looking for this whole time. To qoute

I am more mature and grounded in Christ and unless Christ tells me to move, I don't move!

So you would leave. Period you would leave if you felt the Lord moving you that way. If you felt it was not right and the Lord wanted you to move you would. So watch the quick critizism of so many that had to do the same. Just because you feel that it was not God and they should not have left does not make it so. This was my Point stevenson, we are not really disagreeing I just wanted to make the point that you would leave, yet you would leave only for the RIGHT AND CORRECT reason I commend you for that.

Wow... talk about jumping to a conclusion! Please tell me what has been said in this discussion that made you think church discipline was no longer utilized.

Friend you have to see why I said this. If the 29 are looked at as bondage, then the same view should be applied to you. Because you still have these as well but they are NOT all you teach correct? Well the 29 is not all we teach.This is my point if it is not the same then the only lying difference could be discipline, hince bondage.Because if you have the 29 and we as well but we are in bondage based on these because it is implied that you will be removed if you dont follow them. So the only difference could be is discipline. I know you still do this friend, just making an observation. I posted COGOP and TCOG still very close to those on the outside yet certainly different to you and I.

One Love, I mean no offense to you in this -- but you will never see the point Paul and I are trying to make as long as you come from your perspective.

For you, it is vital that we get a specified set of doctrinal beliefs codified, so we can conform our understanding and praxis to that code... which misses the point of Christianity completely in my view.

It is all about RELATIONSHIP. You can have a total misunderstanding about a doctrine and still be in right relationship. You can even hold to a WRONG doctrine and be in right relationship.

Doctrine matters, but it is not ALL that matters

No offense taken Pastor Gary. But I disagree I do see the point you and paul are making I think it is the other way around and you can not see my point . I very clearly understand both points of view. I am not a robot I do not want it codified this is my point we go so much further then our basic bible beliefs. At the same time I do still believe in Biblical holiness. I will not deny that I am 100 percent against divorce and remmariage but that is because I see it that way in the BIBLE. I dont need a list to live right, The holy ghost leads me. Yet I do feel it is very proper to list your basic bible beliefs so that others know what you believe. I also feel it is equally important for potential members to know in detail what we believe before they join the church.
You are correct it is a relationship thing. Hince relationship produces things. A true relationship with Christ will produce Christ Like fruits which becomes holiness. Not a list of do's and dont's but things that become evident because of that relationship. Relationship and doctrine Both matter but it must start with the milk "the relationship"

I mean no offense either, this was again not a cogop thing but to prove if God speaks to you then a choice must be made. I believe if you truly felt the Lord wanted you somewhere else you would go. Because we are not to follow man but the LORD. This is where this debate stems from with me and stevenson. I hope he understands my point now.

[stevenson]

So you would leave. Period you would leave if you felt the Lord moving you that way. If you felt it was not right and the Lord wanted you to move you would. So watch the quick critizism of so many that had to do the same. Just because you feel that it was not God and they should not have left does not make it so. This was my Point stevenson, we are not really disagreeing I just wanted to make the point that you would leave, yet you would leave only for the RIGHT AND CORRECT reason I commend you for that.

But make sure it's God and not gas. Cuz alot of people felt that those who left were going against the will of God. And those who left feel they were following the will of God. Now both sides can't be right, can they?

[paul]

So you would leave. Period you would leave if you felt the Lord moving you that way. If you felt it was not right and the Lord wanted you to move you would. So watch the quick critizism of so many that had to do the same. Just because you feel that it was not God and they should not have left does not make it so. This was my Point stevenson, we are not really disagreeing I just wanted to make the point that you would leave, yet you would leave only for the RIGHT AND CORRECT reason I commend you for that.

But make sure it's God and not gas. Cuz alot of people felt that those who left were going against the will of God. And those who left feel they were following the will of God. Now both sides can't be right, can they?

One love, If you and so many others left for what you felt was the the correct and right reason. Then why not as an organization state it simply and plainly.

We as a group of pastors and members feel that we must seperate ourselves from the present body we are a part of and organize a new organization that continues to hold to these certain beliefs. Our first General assembly will be held 199---?
and not your 102nd or what ever number you hold it to be.

Remember I was raised in the cogop, an Ordained Bishop and quite active before I left and started an transdenominational church and eventually a mission organization.

[one love]

So you would leave. Period you would leave if you felt the Lord moving you that way. If you felt it was not right and the Lord wanted you to move you would. So watch the quick critizism of so many that had to do the same. Just because you feel that it was not God and they should not have left does not make it so. This was my Point stevenson, we are not really disagreeing I just wanted to make the point that you would leave, yet you would leave only for the RIGHT AND CORRECT reason I commend you for that.

But make sure it's God and not gas. Cuz alot of people felt that those who left were going against the will of God. And those who left feel they were following the will of God. Now both sides can't be right, can they?

One love, If you and so many others left for what you felt was the the correct and right reason. Then why not as an organization state it simply and plainly.

We as a group of pastors and members feel that we must seperate ourselves from the present body we are a part of and organize a new organization that continues to hold to these certain beliefs. Our first General assembly will be held 199---?
and not your 102nd or what ever number you hold it to be.

Remember I was raised in the cogop, an Ordained Bishop and quite active before I left and started an transdenominational church and eventually a mission organization.

I respect that. But what happened was they were praying and fasting seeking Gods will to be done. Through the guidance of the Holy ghost they carried on as the church of God. Now this is where some understanding on other peoples part will need to come in. Just as I relate to each one of you. Starting assemblies over would not be an option. We have not changed the assembly rulings and adhere to the rulings in place. We carried on just as was and have a right to. They were just as much a part of those assemblies as everyone else and partook in those decisions as well.
We do state we feel it was Gods doing in the solemn assembly that is no question. We do feel the Holy ghost was dealing with the church in the 80's as well. This did not just happen in 1990-1993 there were many who wanted change nobody here denies that and there were many that did not. So those who felt they wanted to move in another direction are satisified. Those that wanted things to stay the same in all essence moved on. The only ones in the middle per say would be the ones in COGOP that do still want the old paths and are waiting and hoping they are going to change back. I feel it is safe to say the COGOP likes the direction they have went and are not going to change back. We have moved on and carry on as such. I hope that makes sense. As you know this could go much deeper but I think this is sufficient. Pastors, overseers and members all met in the solemn assembly and fasted and sought the Lord trying to know what to do.

Thank you Paul

How are things going for you in your chruch?

[Paully_44]

But make sure it's God and not gas.

No kidding, I wonder how many things God gets the credit or blamed for when in reality it was the 7-11 burrito and preconcieved ideas that were really at work.

[Paully_44]

I prefer not to list and the against.........rather what I am for

Ahh, but that is a way to live in freedom and grace rather than under oppressive rules, which some people dont seem to be able to handle.

[paul]

So you would leave. Period you would leave if you felt the Lord moving you that way. If you felt it was not right and the Lord wanted you to move you would. So watch the quick critizism of so many that had to do the same. Just because you feel that it was not God and they should not have left does not make it so. This was my Point stevenson, we are not really disagreeing I just wanted to make the point that you would leave, yet you would leave only for the RIGHT AND CORRECT reason I commend you for that.

But make sure it's God and not gas. Cuz alot of people felt that those who left were going against the will of God. And those who left feel they were following the will of God. Now both sides can't be right, can they?

One love, If you and so many others left for what you felt was the the correct and right reason. Then why not as an organization state it simply and plainly.

We as a group of pastors and members feel that we must seperate ourselves from the present body we are a part of and organize a new organization that continues to hold to these certain beliefs. Our first General assembly will be held 199---?
and not your 102nd or what ever number you hold it to be.

Remember I was raised in the cogop, an Ordained Bishop and quite active before I left and started an transdenominational church and eventually a mission organization.

I respect that. But what happened was they were praying and fasting seeking Gods will to be done. Through the guidance of the Holy ghost they carried on as the church of God. Now this is where some understanding on other peoples part will need to come in. Just as I relate to each one of you. Starting assemblies over would not be an option. We have not changed the assembly rulings and adhere to the rulings in place. We carried on just as was and have a right to. They were just as much a part of those assemblies as everyone else and partook in those decisions as well.
We do state we feel it was Gods doing in the solemn assembly that is no question. We do feel the Holy ghost was dealing with the church in the 80's as well. This did not just happen in 1990-1993 there were many who wanted change nobody here denies that and there were many that did not. So those who felt they wanted to move in another direction are satisified. Those that wanted things to stay the same in all essence moved on. The only ones in the middle per say would be the ones in COGOP that do still want the old paths and are waiting and hoping they are going to change back. I feel it is safe to say the COGOP likes the direction they have went and are not going to change back. We have moved on and carry on as such. I hope that makes sense. As you know this could go much deeper but I think this is sufficient. Pastors, overseers and members all met in the solemn assembly and fasted and sought the Lord trying to know what to do.

Thank you Paul

How are things going for you in your chruch?

I understand the reasoning. I just think it more upfront and much less confusing to those outside if things are just stated as they are.

In the 20's when cogop parted from, came out of...they became a new group. their first assembly would have the following year. The same in the 90,s. But I know that it is tied to the "One Church" issue.

You asked how our church is going. The church I attend when not overseas and traveling is doing very well. It is 7 years old and we run about 350. Very caring, very loving and very mission oriented.

As far as our mission organization, (WMOF) this has been one of the most productive years yet. We now have our bible colleges established and in operation in 8 nations. We have been able to build 29 churches this year overseas. And now have about 700+ churches and around 1,000 licensed and ordained ministers who identify with us. We have set up six sewing centers in India for widows and coverts that have been banished from their families and villages. Also sewing centers in Philippines for former prostitutes.

God is so good

[one love]

So you would leave. Period you would leave if you felt the Lord moving you that way. If you felt it was not right and the Lord wanted you to move you would. So watch the quick critizism of so many that had to do the same. Just because you feel that it was not God and they should not have left does not make it so. This was my Point stevenson, we are not really disagreeing I just wanted to make the point that you would leave, yet you would leave only for the RIGHT AND CORRECT reason I commend you for that.

But make sure it's God and not gas. Cuz alot of people felt that those who left were going against the will of God. And those who left feel they were following the will of God. Now both sides can't be right, can they?

One love, If you and so many others left for what you felt was the the correct and right reason. Then why not as an organization state it simply and plainly.

We as a group of pastors and members feel that we must seperate ourselves from the present body we are a part of and organize a new organization that continues to hold to these certain beliefs. Our first General assembly will be held 199---?
and not your 102nd or what ever number you hold it to be.

Remember I was raised in the cogop, an Ordained Bishop and quite active before I left and started an transdenominational church and eventually a mission organization.

I respect that. But what happened was they were praying and fasting seeking Gods will to be done. Through the guidance of the Holy ghost they carried on as the church of God. Now this is where some understanding on other peoples part will need to come in. Just as I relate to each one of you. Starting assemblies over would not be an option. We have not changed the assembly rulings and adhere to the rulings in place. We carried on just as was and have a right to. They were just as much a part of those assemblies as everyone else and partook in those decisions as well.
We do state we feel it was Gods doing in the solemn assembly that is no question. We do feel the Holy ghost was dealing with the church in the 80's as well. This did not just happen in 1990-1993 there were many who wanted change nobody here denies that and there were many that did not. So those who felt they wanted to move in another direction are satisified. Those that wanted things to stay the same in all essence moved on. The only ones in the middle per say would be the ones in COGOP that do still want the old paths and are waiting and hoping they are going to change back. I feel it is safe to say the COGOP likes the direction they have went and are not going to change back. We have moved on and carry on as such. I hope that makes sense. As you know this could go much deeper but I think this is sufficient. Pastors, overseers and members all met in the solemn assembly and fasted and sought the Lord trying to know what to do.

Thank you Paul

How are things going for you in your chruch?

I understand the reasoning. I just think it more upfront and much less confusing to those outside if things are just stated as they are.

In the 20's when cogop parted from, came out of...they became a new group. their first assembly would have the following year. The same in the 90,s. But I know that it is tied to the "One Church" issue.

You asked how our church is going. The church I attend when not overseas and traveling is doing very well. It is 7 years old and we run about 350. Very caring, very loving and very mission oriented.

As far as our mission organization, (WMOF) this has been one of the most productive years yet. We now have our bible colleges established and in operation in 8 nations. We have been able to build 29 churches this year overseas. And now have about 700+ churches and around 1,000 licensed and ordained ministers who identify with us. We have set up six sewing centers in India for widows and coverts that have been banished from their families and villages. Also sewing centers in Philippines for former prostitutes.

God is so good

That is awesome may God bless you in all you do for him.

Im not sure what we could do to be more forth coming. I mean it is pretty plain how we believe, I know so many rumors and misconceptions about us has not helped but, Im all ears to what you mean.

[stevenson]

One love wrote:

Pastors, overseers and members all met in the solemn assembly and fasted and sought the Lord trying to know what to do.

That's the problem! They we're all hungry and not thinking right. LOL! I believe in fasting. I fast between Breakfast and Lunch and between Lunch and Dinner.

[paul]

[quote="one love]

Im not sure what we could do to be more forth coming. I mean it is pretty plain how we believe, I know so many rumors and misconceptions about us has not helped but, Im all ears to what you mean.

As many have stated, you believe in what you have been taught, and your interpretaton of scripture is filtered through that teaching. I was there.

Even the name of your organization tells the real story. This idea that somehow to be authenic you must trace your history back to the original Mt Hittin experience.

Why not just be forthcoming. A group of people met, prayed, fasted, and felt they could no longer be a part of COGOP and left to start a NEW organization. Then go on and do whatever you feel God has called this NEW group to do. And do it. This misguided idea that without the COG name and the Flag one is not the "True Church", or the "Exclusive Church" has brought a great deal of hurt, and harm to people's lives and has driven many a wedges between families.

When I left, no hard feelings, I knew it was time and the Lord's doing. When I started our organization, I did not feel the need to name it Church of God with some prefix or addition. A good friend of mine ( Gary Holcomb ) was in our home at the time. We talked and ideas were shared. We named the organization World Mission Outreach Fellowship. Simply because we wanted to reach out into the world as a mission organization and fellowship with those who could meet us at the cross and together make a difference. Our logo is simply a pair of pierced hands with a globe sitting in them. To convey that we want to reach out to the world through the love of Christ.

I have met thousands of the "Other Sheep" so often mentioned. They are the entire Hindu and Muslim villages that God has given dreams to and visions and the entire village is converted to Jesus. They are the 2 billion people who have not heard of the message of Jesus, about their inheritance in him. These billions, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Animist, Traditional, and non-religious, that Jesus died for, that he loves as much as you and I. Remember, " the earth all the inhabitants, and the fullness thereof belong to God." Why not seek after these "Other Sheep" and not the ones at First Baptist down the street, that they will one day see the light and come to the "One True Fold." They have seen the light, it is Jesus

Their is a name that is above every name ( Philippinas 2 ) it is the name of Jesus. (IMHO) it will be to that name that the great inflow will come to and not the name man has placed over their church door. Nor to any one name made organization.

[RamboPreacher]

As many have stated, you believe in what you have been taught, and your interpretaton of scripture is filtered through that teaching.

as most of us do, unless there is concerted effort to be objective.

Even the name of your organization tells the real story. This idea that somehow to be authenic you must trace your history back to the original Mt Hittin experience.

Why not just be forthcoming. A group of people met, prayed, fasted, and felt they could no longer be a part of COGOP and left to start a NEW organization. Then go on and do whatever you feel God has called this NEW group to do. And do it. This misguided idea that without the COG name and the Flag one is not the "True Church", or the "Exclusive Church" has brought a great deal of hurt, and harm to people's lives and has driven many a wedges between families....

exactly, brother Paul. I have seen the hurts first hand, even though I came in after "the concerned" group had already "split off another branch". I have no ill-will towards these folk.

What's all the hubbub about being a visitor or the bride? it just isn't Biblical.

[one love]

[quote="one love]

[quote]Im not sure what we could do to be more forth coming. I mean it is pretty plain how we believe, I know so many rumors and misconceptions about us has not helped but, Im all ears to what you mean.[/quote]

As many have stated, you believe in what you have been taught, and your interpretaton of scripture is filtered through that teaching. I was there.

Even the name of your organization tells the real story. This idea that somehow to be authenic you must trace your history back to the original Mt Hittin experience.

Why not just be forthcoming. A group of people met, prayed, fasted, and felt they could no longer be a part of COGOP and left to start a NEW organization. Then go on and do whatever you feel God has called this NEW group to do. And do it. This misguided idea that without the COG name and the Flag one is not the "True Church", or the "Exclusive Church" has brought a great deal of hurt, and harm to people's lives and has driven many a wedges between families.

When I left, no hard feelings, I knew it was time and the Lord's doing. When I started our organization, I did not feel the need to name it Church of God with some prefix or addition. A good friend of mine ( Gary Holcomb ) was in our home at the time. We talked and ideas were shared. We named the organization World Mission Outreach Fellowship. Simply because we wanted to reach out into the world as a mission organization and fellowship with those who could meet us at the cross and together make a difference. Our logo is simply a pair of pierced hands with a globe sitting in them. To convey that we want to reach out to the world through the love of Christ.

I have met thousands of the "Other Sheep" so often mentioned. They are the entire Hindu and Muslim villages that God has given dreams to and visions and the entire village is converted to Jesus. They are the 2 billion people who have not heard of the message of Jesus, about their inheritance in him. These billions, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Animist, Traditional, and non-religious, that Jesus died for, that he loves as much as you and I. Remember, " the earth all the inhabitants, and the fullness thereof belong to God." Why not seek after these "Other Sheep" and not the ones at First Baptist down the street, that they will one day see the light and come to the "One True Fold." They have seen the light, it is Jesus

Their is a name that is above every name ( Philippinas 2 ) it is the name of Jesus. (IMHO) it will be to that name that the great inflow will come to and not the name man has placed over their church door. Nor to any one name made organization. [/quote]

The problem with your philosophy is you are doing the same thing you accused me of. You are looking at it through your perspective alone, by doing that you will never understand. If you tried to observe it the other way even if you did not agree you could see what im saying. Im trying to use wisdom here and not have to engage to where my statements may be taken out of context.
First we went under COGOP for how long. So was it the "church of God " name alone? Next we didnt start a new organization per say we never changed and carried on as the chruch of God. In 1923 I do not feel another organization was started. You will not percieve this because you just want to prove me wrong rather then taking a second to understand. In your eyes you left and changed your name. But you do not believe the same way. The church does not hold the same signifigance as it does to us. Christ purchased his church with his blood.
It is not about a name on the door. For someone who says they followed this theology for so long it seems as if you really did not understand it. I wonder why you think we are going after baptist and not new converts. DO you have any idea how many foriegn missions we set up all the time with new converts. It is not about conforming all christians to us it is about winning the lost we just believe all christians will be united into one fold before the rapture. I cant imagine why you feel we are not wining muslims, hindu's and the rest. We are in over 40 plus conutries.
http://www.thechurchofgod.org/directory/index.php#world


Nobody coheresed me I studied and found this to be the truth as I was led then I joined the church. The Holyghost said in the solemn assembly to go under no other name then the church of god. You and your friends decided your name we did not. Again the way you percieve the church and the way you do things is so different. I still believe the church is Gods divine institution, not something we can just invent on our ideas and thinking. This is the name from the begining and does hold signifigance. If we went under "COG" we would be wrong for that. Nothing we do will be right to you and I understand that. You look at through your eyes and thinking rather then thinking it was God's doing. We followed the Holyghost and his leading, I can explain that from the 80's on but it would not benefit. I respect your position and as I said we can agree to disagree. I have no ill will toward anyone. I am encouraged by the work you do for the Lord
May God bless you

[paul]

one love wrote:

You will not percieve this because you just want to prove me wrong rather then taking a second to understand.

I am not trying to prove any one right or wrong. And I more than understand your position. I simply can not agree with it.

In your eyes you left and changed your name. But you do not believe the same way.

I did not change my name. I started an organization completely seperate from any other otganization. I chose a name that I felt reflected what we were about and doing.

The church does not hold the same signifigance as it does to us. Christ purchased his church with his blood.

(Attitude) Here you make an assumption which is wrong. You are assuming that because I do not agree with your concept of One Church, One Fold, that my love for the church is somewhat less. I believe that I have a greater understanding and greater love and committment for the Church ( the body of Christ ) now more than I ever had while believing as you do.

It is not about a name on the door. For someone who says they followed this theology for so long it seems as if you really did not understand it. I wonder why you think we are going after baptist and not new converts. DO you have any idea how many foriegn missions we set up all the time with new converts. It is not about conforming all christians to us it is about winning the lost we just believe all christians will be united into one fold before the rapture. I cant imagine why you feel we are not wining muslims, hindu's and the rest. We are in over 40 plus conutries.

Nobody coheresed me I studied and found this to be the truth as I was led then I joined the church. The Holyghost said in the solemn assembly to go under no other name then the church of god. You and your friends decided your name we did not. Again the way you percieve the church and the way you do things is so different. I still believe the church is Gods divine institution, not something we can just invent on our ideas and thinking.

Again this is a very critical area you mention. Implying that Because I chose a name it is somewhat less or not as spiritual as your name because it came by ( your understanding ) from the Holy Ghost. You see, I could follow that same logic and say my friend and I held a solemn gathering in my home and the Holy Ghost spoke and said this is the name of your organization. You see, I do believe the Holy spirit spoke to my heart and spirit and led me to use the name I did.

[quote"] This is the name from the begining and does hold signifigance. If we went under "COG" we would be wrong for that. Nothing we do will be right to you and I understand that. You look at through your eyes and thinking rather then thinking it was God's doing. We followed the Holyghost and his leading, I can explain that from the 80's on but it would not benefit. I respect your position and as I said we can agree to disagree. I have no ill will toward anyone. I am encouraged by the work you do for the Lord
May God bless you[/quote]

This may be hard for some to understand. It is not about mathmatics, it is not about numbers for the sake of numbers.

When Nancy and I started wmof, it was her and I...no organization, no tithe base, no churches for support. A vision and a dream from God. we have made a small impact established in 14 countries as I said with schhols in eight.

What I see so many times is groups coming to the mission field to plant their flag....for some it is more about their organization than the souls being won to Christ. So numbers don't impress me. It is the attitude of the heart that means anything.

My question to you is simple: Could you see the different denominations and transdenominational and non denominational groups coming together in unity to win the lost for Christ, to impact the world. without them subscribing to your doctrine. Just believing as they do ( understanding that that belief is that Jesus is the only Savior and access to Him and eternal life is through Grace, and repentance ) ?

If not then I do not feel you have a true biblical understanding of the Church.

I have no ill will toward you or anyone nor any bible believing organization. I plan to spend eternity with them in heaven even if they believe somewhat different than I