what ever happened to

[MrDanger]

By the way, PG, I didn't know of your other comments until just now when I went to another thread. My responses have not been toward your other post.

Servant Leadership is not natural for most. It is something that is taught by example. By coming alongside a WILLING participant, and showing them how to be a servant. How to look for opportunities to be a servant. And finally, show them that you don't seek the praise of others for your servanthood.

[Brenda]

Pastor Bill

but about taking the time to be mentored and gain experience.

I've seen a few young ministers who really loved the Lord that were put into Pastoring because Pastors were needed.
And they through lack of experience didn't know how to handle certain situations when they came upon them.
They became overwhelmed. And plainly quit.

I think when a man feels a calling they should first be mentored. They need a spiritual father they need a confidant.
Because questions and problems will arise when their set forth as a Pastor in a congregation .. and if their out there by themselves they run into situations they really don't know how to handle, and because of lack of experience they make the wrong decision.

[dawgs10]

If this is in response to a comment I made elsewhere in which I used the term "pay their dues" -- please allow me to clarify:

If you are a young man or woman called to serve God in any kind of ministry, you will be hard pressed to find a bigger bunch of cheerleaders than some of the pastors here on Jude2. People like Raymond Pruitt, Ron Hamm, Paul Roberts, E.C. McKinley (and I hope to be included in that list) and others are actively seeking out emerging leaders and trying to lift them up and push them to the forefront. Sometimes, however, there seems t be a disconnect between what I hear and what I observe.

A personal example: a young man at my church... filled with potential... passionate about the Lord, vocal in his witness, asking to be used and mentored. Mentoring, in my view, includes more than formal education -- it also means walking alongside, and expecting the mentee to walk alongside the mentor, learning by example, and learning by doing.

When I would be called to the hospital to visit someone, the young man always had an excuse, or was "tied up." When he asked to be allowed to minister, I encouraged him to launch a men's group, which he did, and he held a total of maybe 4 meetings before giving up. When we had projects involving plain old grunt work, he was nowhere to be found.

He wanted, actually, to be up front, in the spotlight, addressing the entire church (which I allowed him to do, too) where he would receive the public acclaim and validation he sought.

Fast forward: Another young man in whom I see great potential does a lot of behind-the-scenes serving, never asks to be thanked or placed in the spotlight, and has the potential to lead a great church.

Another one, a female, who doesn't meet any of the "normal" criteria the world seeks in a leader... not much education, not too physically attractive, not polished or smooth, but smart, quick, good, and with great potential. When we refinished the floors for the school in which we meet, she was there with a mop.

Of those three, who will be the leader(s) and who will not? How should I, as their senior leader, help them in their development?

this is what i meant by pay dues. i think most of us agree on this. the thing is lot of people have been asking where this person is or that person is. i guess i was wondering out loud how many people have done what it takes to get to a point they can be an effective minister. like it or not we are ministering to an older generation as much as we are ministering to a younger and we have to earn trust and respect.

[DeWayneTN]

I think I can understand the paying dues part. The Bible does say of who much is given, much is required and also, being a good steward over small thing and being made stewards over larger things. But I definitely think the ladder terminology is too closely associated with the world's concept of success.

[Alan]

But I definitely think the ladder terminology is too closely associated with the world's concept of success.

True, wouldn't we want to go down the ladder in God's kingdom? I mean in the world the person at the top of the ladder has everyone else serving them, so church leaders would be near the bottom since they serve the members of the church.

[crispfin]

True, wouldn't we want to go down the ladder in God's kingdom? I mean in the world the person at the top of the ladder has everyone else serving them, so church leaders would be near the bottom since they serve the members of the church.

Well that just might lead one to question why the term "servant leadership" (usually with a big L, little s) is such an oxymoron . . .

[Pastor Bill]

True, wouldn't we want to go down the ladder in God's kingdom? I mean in the world the person at the top of the ladder has everyone else serving them, so church leaders would be near the bottom since they serve the members of the church.

Well that just might lead one to question why the term "servant leadership" (usually with a big L, little s) is such an oxymoron . . .

If you feel it's an oxymoron, you have not been under a Servant Leader, or been one yourself.

I have said many times, "normal" growth for any Christian starts very selfishly, (salvation itself is focused on dealing with MY sins, MY life, My redemption) and as a Christian matures, the focus SHOULD change, early on it will be more internal, focusing on soaking up knowledge, being ministered to, conforming oneself to His will, etc., but that should gradually (or for some not as gradually) shift to focus more to serving. Leaders should be at the other end of that spectrum, where the focus is mainly on serving.

The problem is when someone hasn't grown to that point, but shows talents and abilities that get promoted as leadership skills, they often then stop growing, and don't really get to the servant's heart.

Mr Danger - How many of those "leaders" that didn't stick around will be helping next year? Unfortunately not only is this hard to teach people, it also leaves us short handed often, which is why we often have people in leadership who haven't learned this yet.

[Alan]

I don't think he's saying there's no such thing as a "Servant Leader", just that the phrase is grammatically an oxymoron.

[Pastor Bill]

An oxymoron is two words used together that are opposite in their definition, like "pretty ugly"

If you feel being a leader and being a servant are opposites, then it seems you have missed the point of both.

[Alan]

well to most a leader is over and a servant is under, so most do not see a leader as a servant.

[Pastor Bill]

well to most a leader is over and a servant is under, so most do not see a leader as a servant.

Most do not see the divinity of Christ, but that doesn't change it's truth.

Also most do not see service and leadership as polar opposites either. You ask any of the presidential candidates what they are wanting to do, and it is to serve their country in that position (whether they actually fulfill doing that is a whole different discussion)

Leadership IS service, otherwise it's not leading, it's controlling.

[dolfan]

Listen to your leaders and mentors, too. That should be like lesson #1 in anything. That was somehow lost on me or never really made clear. Anyway, I'm responsible and should've had better sense.

[Dr. Ron]

For as long as there has been an appointment system, there has been a "dues paying...and a ladder". It is impossible to separate those.

It has been the most divisive system ever divised. My dad was a great preacher and pastor. He served for 38 years in COGOP. He went where-ever he was sent. He was given only one "limit" church in all those years but never left a church that didn't pay the "limit".

He was a builder...he was always replaced by a "ladder climber" and those churches always went down ....to some degree. It didn't matter to him where he was sent, he built the church because he had vision and zeal.

He was one of my mentors. He "made" me preach my first funeral at 16. He showed me how to work with people who were grieving. He taught me how to construct a sermon. He "allowed " me to get out of bed at all hours of the night ....even when I was in HS and go with him to pray for sick members who called for prayer.

Until the day that a church takes it upon themselves to "mentor" the successor, there will be no success. It is vital in this society. I used to tell my pastors, "if you want a community to believe you are truely there for them, buy a burial plot in that city and committ for life."

[dawgs10]

For as long as there has been an appointment system, there has been a "dues paying...and a ladder". It is impossible to separate those.

It has been the most divisive system ever divised. My dad was a great preacher and pastor. He served for 38 years in COGOP. He went where-ever he was sent. He was given only one "limit" church in all those years but never left a church that didn't pay the "limit".

He was a builder...he was always replaced by a "ladder climber" and those churches always went down ....to some degree. It didn't matter to him where he was sent, he built the church because he had vision and zeal.

He was one of my mentors. He "made" me preach my first funeral at 16. He showed me how to work with people who were grieving. He taught me how to construct a sermon. He "allowed " me to get out of bed at all hours of the night ....even when I was in HS and go with him to pray for sick members who called for prayer.

Until the day that a church takes it upon themselves to "mentor" the successor, there will be no success. It is vital in this society. I used to tell my pastors, "if you want a community to believe you are truely there for them, buy a burial plot in that city and committ for life."

sounds like more young ministers in cogop needs more men like your dad.

[soulsearcher]

As my pastor teaches, there's a funny little elevator in the Kingdom of God. To go "Up", you push the "Down" button.