COGOP name change

[Pastor Bill]

how would CoGoP go about an overall apology? Would such really make a difference? Would people say oh that church that offended me in the 60's says they are sorry now.

I think they should follow the example of the Church of God, Anderson and put it in the papers, Christian magazines, etc. We didn't listen many years ago when we were told to repent. I think it is about time, and yes, I believe it's necessary.

I haven't really known how to respond on the apology thing too much. I completely agree this should have been done at the corporate level at the time they were told to repent, BUT I also was not a part of the organization at that time, and I am caught in the middle. Many want an apology for things that have never been a part of my ministry. If I did that it would be very hollow and have little meaning. As an organization can we make that apology while we still have a few churches, and areas that are continuing in these errors?

A name change I am for, it would remove what is at times a stumbling block for newcomers, to me that's not about the errors of the past. The errors of the past won't be healed by something that simple, or even an "official statement" from the church. I personally want our local church to be seen for what it is, and not the past problems, those that were hurt, if they see us, that's what I want them to see. BUT some are hurt to the point they will no longer look, and for those we may never be able to truly heal the wounds that were caused. For others, they may see the changes, but also see the areas where things haven't changed, it may not be fair, but for many they will always see the good as an exception rather than the norm.

The fact is we aren't going to be able to fix it all, in fact, we aren't even all on the same page in WANTING to fix it.

I feel like we are being encouraged to move forward, and I see our leadership as moving forward, but for many as long as there are pockets where the old ways overrule the vision and direction the rest of us are now following, apologies will not be adequate.

[one love]

I know a former COGOP minister who told me the best prayer he ever prayed that "got through" was the one he prayed before he ran off with his female assistant pastor and dumped his wife.

Gerald, if I may join the discussion? What you have done with the above example is no different than what you accuse others of with their examples. Formulating opinions concerning the right ways of God cannot be diminished to one awkward event that left a bad taste. I have experienced several of these also, but I didn't allow them to become my measuring stick for all of pentecostalism.

People pray long and hard about many things. It doesnt define or justify Doctrine.

Your statement is true, but this statement would likewise be true, "The effectual, fervent prayer of the righteous will avail much". I think you are trying to compare the powerful works of God to an individual's biblical understanding. My grandfather couldn't read very well at all, obviously never attended seminary, and believed during his time that the church flag offered protection, but I have witnessed him pray the prayer of faith for healing multiple times. Wouldn't you think that God's grace is larger than our minds can comprehend?

You did not answer the question: Do these goofy acrobatics /acts of self mesmerism/ or "LO God moved in the Service and y'all handled coals but didnt learn a thing about grace." Define or Justify Doctrine in your mind???

Okay, you have thrown the gauntlet now.

With all due respect, your question comes across disrespectful to those who have paved the way for us to be where we are today. My grandmother preached in CoGoP for 55 years. She handled coals, hugged hot stove pipes, prayed out devils, healed the sick, and likely many things I don't know about. She came from an era when people truly spent time in prayer... can you spell HOURS of travailing prayer? Did that era have everything right about grace? No, but I do remember the altars being much fuller and more concerned about God's time than most today.

Gerald, based upon the miracles, including salvation experiences, that I've witnessed in my short lifetime, I would have to say that God considered the failures in a much different way than we would have. He still does the same today.

Good post I have family that witnesses things of the same. Also would see "gorders "spelling") healed before there eyes.



BillyNC Wrote

AAAAGGHHHH Hijacked by the OLD D/R Debate

and this is how Im sorry for jumping in and partaking in the hijack

next - if you have read any of my posts you know that I completely disagree with the "evils of D&R" teaching as it was (and why I mentioned it)

[one love]

how would CoGoP go about an overall apology? Would such really make a difference? Would people say oh that church that offended me in the 60's says they are sorry now.

I think they should follow the example of the Church of God, Anderson and put it in the papers, Christian magazines, etc. We didn't listen many years ago when we were told to repent. I think it is about time, and yes, I believe it's necessary.

I am interested in hearing what you were told to repent for? I have it on video and surely I have the ones from 88 as well and when WP was on stage and the HG said
"I have a church within a church a nation within a naiton repent or you will go no further and I will pull my remnant out" (paraphrasing) and others that said "repent or you will go no further"

Much more that all lead to the same idea and it was felt then that it was the old time people trying to have there way, now is it believed the HG was saying repent for your teachings???????????????????
If you watch this that is a hard sell, I am realy curious no disrespect here.

[EagerBeaver]

how would CoGoP go about an overall apology? Would such really make a difference? Would people say oh that church that offended me in the 60's says they are sorry now.

I think they should follow the example of the Church of God, Anderson and put it in the papers, Christian magazines, etc. We didn't listen many years ago when we were told to repent. I think it is about time, and yes, I believe it's necessary.

I am interested in hearing what you were told to repent for? I have it on video and surely I have the ones from 88 as well and when WP was on stage and the HG said
"I have a church within a church a nation within a naiton repent or you will go no further and I will pull my remnant out" (paraphrasing) and others that said "repent or you will go no further"

Much more that all lead to the same idea and it was felt then that it was the old time people trying to have there way, now is it believed the HG was saying repent for your teachings???????????????????
If you watch this that is a hard sell, I am realy curious no disrespect here.

If it was Wade Phillips on stage speaking, it definitely wasn't the Holy Spirit.

[Full Quiver]

If it was Wade Phillips on stage speaking, it definitely wasn't the Holy Spirit.

Eager, Wade was on stage and if it was not the Holy Ghost then the entire argument, debate, and discussion concerning CoGoP's need for repentance is null and void.

I am wondering if you personally know Wade and were you at the Assembly in question or have you seen the video of it?

[Brenda]

I think apologises have been done by numerous people for the hurts that has happened to them by the church as a whole from the leadership to the laity.
Did it do any good? I don't know. Its how it was recieved from the hurt party. And how well they will go on and not look back at the past and what was done.
As the old saying goes...behind sight is always 20/20.
All that can be done is for today and the tomorrows.

A lot of black folks are still looking for apologises also still holding grudges for what happened to their ancestry. Same with the church as with the racial issue. We can't do anything about the past. So lets work together for eternity matters. Winning souls. Not looking back.
My sister was one of the hurt parties. Not long ago she said to me..I always wanted to be apart of this organization but they wouldn't allow me. (D/R issue) She is a part of another organization now.. been teaching classes for years among other works. She don't hold anything against the church. But she is glad to see the way things are changing in the church.

[Kenya]

What was done to innocent people back in the 80's and before was not part of my ministry either. But it was done "in the name" of "COGOP" doctrine and ALL of our churches have suffered because of it. I think everyone here can think of someone who was formerly at their church with many gifts and talents to offer who were "not good" enough to officially be in our organization.

I personally believe that the COGOP should issue a statement that says "We apologize to those whom we have offended, excluded and ousted in the name of COGOP doctrine. Wearing jewelry should have never been a reason to end someone's sucessful ministry. Our exclusive mindset was cultish and we want to denounce ever believing that we were better than any other blood bought Christian. Shame on us. We were wrong. Please forgive us."

And, Brenda, if our US government has not made that statement to African Americans, they need to.

And no, I am NOT voting for Obama.....

[one love]

how would CoGoP go about an overall apology? Would such really make a difference? Would people say oh that church that offended me in the 60's says they are sorry now.

I think they should follow the example of the Church of God, Anderson and put it in the papers, Christian magazines, etc. We didn't listen many years ago when we were told to repent. I think it is about time, and yes, I believe it's necessary.

I am interested in hearing what you were told to repent for? I have it on video and surely I have the ones from 88 as well and when WP was on stage and the HG said
"I have a church within a church a nation within a naiton repent or you will go no further and I will pull my remnant out" (paraphrasing) and others that said "repent or you will go no further"

Much more that all lead to the same idea and it was felt then that it was the old time people trying to have there way, now is it believed the HG was saying repent for your teachings???????????????????
If you watch this that is a hard sell, I am realy curious no disrespect here.

If it was Wade Phillips on stage speaking, it definitely wasn't the Holy Spirit.

wade was on stage by his own will and really did not acknowledge the whole thing, remember he was the group that wanted change. As I said it was looked at as if it was not important. He just went on and on about people saying he is jesus only........wade had nothing to do with the multiple messages.

lets be frank there was corruption deeply rooted at that time and before. There were those that wanted change and doing so wrongfuly and forcefully and the HG says repent or you will go no further, how do you come to the conclusion that was indicating repenting for teachings? there were no such claims made in those messages at all and the theme and feeling of the message was more realtive to staying on course with what had been revealed. I have it on tape, the one who spoke the messages, all of them and the way it was worded. It sure did not go anything like repent for your teachings and lets bring change, it more went for the opposite.

[Pastor Bill]

What was done to innocent people back in the 80's and before was not part of my ministry either. But it was done "in the name" of "COGOP" doctrine and ALL of our churches have suffered because of it. I think everyone here can think of someone who was formerly at their church with many gifts and talents to offer who were "not good" enough to officially be in our organization.

I personally believe that the COGOP should issue a statement that says "We apologize to those whom we have offended, excluded and ousted in the name of COGOP doctrine. Wearing jewelry should have never been a reason to end someone's sucessful ministry. Our exclusive mindset was cultish and we want to denounce ever believing that we were better than any other blood bought Christian. Shame on us. We were wrong. Please forgive us."

And, Brenda, if our US government has not made that statement to African Americans, they need to.

And no, I am NOT voting for Obama.....

At the 2002 Assembly an official statement denouncing our previous exclusive stance, an overwhelming majority of the church was in favor of it, but our governance structure doesn't work that way. Statements were made by the GO that fit what you are looking for if I remember correctly.

[Kenya]

What was done to innocent people back in the 80's and before was not part of my ministry either. But it was done "in the name" of "COGOP" doctrine and ALL of our churches have suffered because of it. I think everyone here can think of someone who was formerly at their church with many gifts and talents to offer who were "not good" enough to officially be in our organization.

I personally believe that the COGOP should issue a statement that says "We apologize to those whom we have offended, excluded and ousted in the name of COGOP doctrine. Wearing jewelry should have never been a reason to end someone's sucessful ministry. Our exclusive mindset was cultish and we want to denounce ever believing that we were better than any other blood bought Christian. Shame on us. We were wrong. Please forgive us."

And, Brenda, if our US government has not made that statement to African Americans, they need to.

And no, I am NOT voting for Obama.....

At the 2002 Assembly an official statement denouncing our previous exclusive stance, an overwhelming majority of the church was in favor of it, but our governance structure doesn't work that way. Statements were made by the GO that fit what you are looking for if I remember correctly.

It is well and good to make that statement from the GA, but most people who were hurt by COGOP no longer attend the GA.

In addition to the newspapers and Christian magazines, I think it would be wise to send letters to former members/ministers. Many of them could be found from the last TC reunion.....

Also, to my knowledge, repenting for taking churches away from ministers because they put on their wedding ring has not been addressed, has it? I could have missed that session though. I am usually in the hallways.

And, I was there at the GA when the message and interpretation was given for us to repent. Obviously, we didn't get the right then or we would be twice what we are now. I wasn't necessarily talking about "teachings" being what we needed to repent of. Scripturally, what God hates is an arrogant and haughty attitude and we (as an organization) have been very guilty of that.

[one love]

What was done to innocent people back in the 80's and before was not part of my ministry either. But it was done "in the name" of "COGOP" doctrine and ALL of our churches have suffered because of it. I think everyone here can think of someone who was formerly at their church with many gifts and talents to offer who were "not good" enough to officially be in our organization.

I personally believe that the COGOP should issue a statement that says "We apologize to those whom we have offended, excluded and ousted in the name of COGOP doctrine. Wearing jewelry should have never been a reason to end someone's sucessful ministry. Our exclusive mindset was cultish and we want to denounce ever believing that we were better than any other blood bought Christian. Shame on us. We were wrong. Please forgive us."

And, Brenda, if our US government has not made that statement to African Americans, they need to.

And no, I am NOT voting for Obama.....

At the 2002 Assembly an official statement denouncing our previous exclusive stance, an overwhelming majority of the church was in favor of it, but our governance structure doesn't work that way. Statements were made by the GO that fit what you are looking for if I remember correctly.

It is well and good to make that statement from the GA, but most people who were hurt by COGOP no longer attend the GA.

In addition to the newspapers and Christian magazines, I think it would be wise to send letters to former members/ministers. Many of them could be found from the last TC reunion.....

Also, to my knowledge, repenting for taking churches away from ministers because they put on their wedding ring has not been addressed, has it? I could have missed that session though. I am usually in the hallways.

And, I was there at the GA when the message and interpretation was given for us to repent. Obviously, we didn't get the right then or we would be twice what we are now. I wasn't necessarily talking about "teachings" being what we needed to repent of. Scripturally, what God hates is an arrogant and haughty attitude and we (as an organization) have been very guilty of that.

which message and interpretation brings you to this view since you were there in the eighties. I might break out a vcr to get the exact words. Why would they apologize for taking licenses for wearing rings if that was a test of membership or are you speaking of after 1990-1993, then I understand. Again I am curious becasue I have watched that tape so many times and when I came here and other forums and heard them talking about those M/I when they were denounced by some before becasue it was leaning the other way I was shocked to see what some were saying they meant.

May the Lord bless you.

[Pastor Gary]

Again I am curious becasue I have watched that tape so many times and when I came here and other forums and heard them talking about those M/I when they were denounced by some before becasue it was leaning the other way I was shocked to see what some were saying they meant.

I am not exactly sure what that paragraph really means. Please elaborate.

(I was present during one of those "repentance assemblies" and can tell you unequivocally that I hit the floor and understood EXACTLY what was being said... we (COGOP) were most definitely being chastised by the Lord for our arrogance and called to repent of the exclusive position we held. There was zero doubt about it for me, in that big room in Cleveland that day.)

[Mat]

report

[Kenya]

OK here it is, I'm sorry for past hurts that took place in the name of the COGOP and by those who said they were acting for God and by the Bible. I'm sorry for corruption in the COGOP, both of past and current leadership. It grieves me to think people were lost over everything from church teachings to the color of carpeting in the church. It repents me that we had/have leaders who do not act out of love for individuals, families, local churches or the COGOP in general. I confess that sins were covered over for the sake of position and power; whither it was local pastors who scammed their members for money or General Officials who were poor stewards of church funds and have been unwilling to accept disciplined. In the past those whose sins had been confessed and forgiven were rejected, while at the same time that was covering up of the sins of adulterous ministers. We have allowed the talent of individuals be more important then their known homosexuality and failed to expose and expel child molesters. It was wrong to bar those who had a failed marriage(s) in their past though they were forgiven, and it was wrong to tell people it was God's will for them to stay in a loveless or abusive marriage. The total band on jewelry was extra-Biblical and it is evident that the COGOP is not the Bride of Christ. For these claims I am deeply sorry!

All this is true. Much of this is true for other denominations and independent (pastor controlled) churches as well. There are people who have been hurt in every kind and color of church and there are many abusive ministers in the church world. We all have our hurts, but sometimes, in the dark of my prayer closet, when I want to point out my hurts to my Heavenly Father there is a light that shines in my innermost being. This light reveals sins I have committed and people I have hurt. How shall I be judged when they are pointing out their hurts to my Heavenly Father and saying I did it?

COGOP politics and history aside, on this board we can blame the COGOP for past misdeeds that have somehow “marred” are current life. However, that will only take you so far. I have heard many stories of other non-COGOP churches that have invited people to leave for one reason or another. There are bad parents out that who did not make their kids go to the COGOP. Who do those kids blame for their problems? Everyday men leave their wives and children for a younger woman because they don’t want that wife or those kids anymore, and these men have never heard of the COGOP. There are many people who struggle with their sexual identity, or addiction, or broken relationships that have never even been in a church. Who do they blame? It’s kind of comforting that we have a bunch of misguided fanatics to blame for our job problems, or our family issues, or our lack of self-esteem or our bad memories. You have got to pity the 99.999% of the people in this country who don’t have the COGOP to blame for their messed up life.

Mat

Paragraph one: I actually think that is well stated and it's a good start....

Paragraph two: Yes, you are correct. We have all hurt others and if we know about that hurt, we (or the organization) should go to that person, repent and apologize and try to move forward with the relationship.

Paragraph three: I hope you don't think I am playing the blame game. I had a wonderful childhood as the daughter of a COGOP pastor. He sheltered me from much of the above, so I don't have deepseeded resentment. I really don't. I just want to see the church do the right thing.....Yes, the church hurt him at a point in his ministry, but he came back to pastor in COGOP. A few years later, that State Overseer (who represented COGOP at the same his license was taken for not preaching exclusivity) actually came to him and apologized. The apology meant a lot to my dad. I think it would mean a lot to others who have been hurt.

[Mat]

removed