Strange coincidence or Ordered steps?

[jessea]

Pastor Don said,

Your theology suggest that there are those who are alive and have no hope of salvation.

I guess that would be a true statement. My theology also suggest that some will go to hell when they thought they were Christians and doing the works of God, but instead they will hear "depart from me, I never knew you".

Judas wasn't a man who went down a wrong path and ended up betraying Christ. The Bible said the he was the son of perdition. Who made that choice Judas or God?

I am under the understanding according to the scripture, that Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. Doesn't that mean He started the story of our lives, writes the content, and then finishes it with "the end".

Maybe we are not talking about the same concept of Free Will. God has a people that he has called and formed for Himself. I guess He doesn't care what color clothing that they choose to wear, that would be our choice I suppose. However, my new birth did not rest on me weighing the good verses the bad about eternal life, God showed me my deadness next to His righteousness and my only response was "I want you".

[Full Quiver]

Speaking of Eternal Life, Jesus asked His disciples will you go away also? Their reply was you have the words of eternal life. Will you go away suggests choice does it not?

[Brian]

Man this thread is good! (at least to me) I can see both sides of the coin here. I can see God as our Savior and our lifeboat when the storm comes. But I also see Him as the storm! The thing about God is that He can be and IS both! He is both the giver of life and He is the taker. He provides for his people to bless them and he takes away to teach them. God is so much bigger than we can even begin to comprehend. That's not to say that He is unknowable, He is. We can know the deep things of God threw his Spirit who resides in us.

We all know that the word of God is a complete work. What I mean is, one can't only stop with the parts that talk about love and peace and touchy feeliness. We have to understand and incorporate the other aspects of the word that deal with being stern and tough love or just being tough. It all has it's place. ie: all things have there season. The body has many members and therefore many functions. The hand does not do what the foot does. The eyes are different than the mouth. Lets apply that to individual people for the sake of my explanation. A doctor is in the business of saving lives, a solder sometimes needs to take them. An architect designs and help create a building and a demolition guy blows them up. A music minister would love to sing and play praises to our Lord all day long while some others are checking there watches and pulling out there hair waiting for them to just stop it already! Yet we are ALL apart of the same body building the same kingdom working for the same goal and the same prize. If that can be said of the body what about the Head, the brains of the operation?

Move on to Gerald I have been around for a long time on Jude2 (even longer before) probably 12+ years. Gerald has rubbed alot of people the wrong way PastorDon. You weren't the first and won't be the last. But I have to say, I haven't one harsh word to say about him. While we have disagreed on numerous topics he has never shown me the slightest bit of disrespect or slander. I actually like him alot, he has his place in the family, as do I. PastorDon, you may be the surgeon or the builder while Gerald might be the soldier or the demo man. you both have a place. both are needed.

Let us stop trying to cram God into our own little boxes. He is too darn big!

[oletimer]

Brian posted:

He is too darn big!

??????????????

[Brian]

Brian posted:

He is too darn big!

??????????????

I am not sure I get your confusion. I was just messing around. Ya know, stop putting God in a box cause He is too big. God isn't confined to our small pre-conceived notions. It was my feeble attempt at being funny. I guess I failed. LOL

[Mike Vande]

Here is one YOU are ignorant of:


1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

So which is it Jammy?

Is it by your choice?

Or is it by the Holy Ghost?

Gerald, if you believe that scripture to mean that a genuinely born again person cannot make his mouth say the words "Jesus is accursed", it's simply not true. And, if you mean to imply that a person, saved or otherwise, cannot say the words" Jesus is Lord" unless the Spirit of the Lord causes him to, you pretty much need to retract everything you've said about the faith/word folks. They say Jesus in Lord a lot...

[Mike Vande]

In the period following the the Battlen of Gallipoli in WW1, Oswald Chambers took up the subject of God's sovereignity verses man's free will in a rather small book. I read the book some years ago, and I can't recall the name of it. He was troubled that the machines guns that were chewing heathens into hamburger were doing the same thing to Christian men, even though Psalm 91:7 promises "A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you."
Chamber's take on it, after much prayer and study, was that the world is wild and not orderly, and has been since the Fall of man. What we see around us is not the world God intended. Things like Down's Syndrome, child molestation, violent weather, war, etc. are the result of the curse of sin Adam brought onto the world through disobedience.

What we see now is God working all things to the good for those who love Him, who were called according to His purpose, which is to show those of Earth and in the Heavenlies His love in the midst of a fallen world, despite the total unworthiness of the people He bestows it on.

Theologians and other such riff raff have been arguing free will vs predestination for centuries. So far, no one has come up with an answer that satisfies both sides of the argument. Instead of that, why don't you guys argue about the timeless and important question "Can God create a rock so big even He can't move it?" It'll probably be as fruitful as this...

[Gerald Creasy]

Here is one YOU are ignorant of:


1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

So which is it Jammy?

Is it by your choice?

Or is it by the Holy Ghost?

Gerald, if you believe that scripture to mean that a genuinely born again person cannot make his mouth say the words "Jesus is accursed", it's simply not true. And, if you mean to imply that a person, saved or otherwise, cannot say the words" Jesus is Lord" unless the Spirit of the Lord causes him to, you pretty much need to retract everything you've said about the faith/word folks. They say Jesus in Lord a lot...

Context Mike. Context

The context was that BELIEF that Jesus is Lord comes by a DESCISION.

In other words "I have decided to follow Jesus."

This scripture says that it is beyond just your decision.

[oletimer]

Gerald Creasy posted

This scripture says that it is beyond just your decision

What about context and scriptures here? Gerald I've read all these post and you have required contexts and here I think that you are guilty of the same.

The Spirit leads us to conviction, but God gives us the chose of decision. If we go to heaven then it will be because we chose to follow Christ and if we want to go to hell then it will be because we chose not to follow Christ. God calls, but we have to answer the call.

I know that you are going to try to have the finial word, but old buddy when you stand before the Lord at judgement, you will not have the finial word.

Though you do cause many of us to think over our belief, seldom do we change, but become more affirm in what we know to be truth.

I believe that you know that when the chips are down for you that I'm for you.

[Pastor Don]

Jessica;
How horrible it must be for those who have no hope!. I have never meet anyone who was without hope of salvation. How do we identify them? What criteria must they meet?

Of course with what you have just said then John 3:16 is not a true statement at all. According to your theology He didn't die so that whosoever will, He only died for a select group.

You honestly think it will be a surprise to those who hear the words..."depart from me"? Lets look at that scripture...

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Everyone that does the will of the Father will enter in. then vv24 is very special...therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine AND doeth them.

Too many holes in your theology for me to embrace. Too many times we hear the King of Heaven use the phrase "whosoever". Too many times there are choices that have to be made. As for Judas. Yes he did take the wrong path. No where does it teach that God made him the son of perdition but rather it suggests that he chose to go to the council and accept their offer. Then realizing he had messed up, he tried to return but he had already chosen his end and immediately ended his own life.

God bless...
DJ

[Pastor Don]

Brian;
I appreciate the desire the be a peace keeper. For the most part I stay out of all of this junk.
As for being around, I have been around since we started out on the CoGoP site and so on.
I have watched Gerald use his spiritual bullying on more than one, and I have also fallen pray to it. He has proven once again that it counts only when he wielding the "Sword". It matters not that he offends time and time again it is always someone else's fault.

If you look at what he has had to say in the other thread about the tragedy of the baby that died, he backs down from what he proclaims here while calling my christian walk in to question. If it was God's will that the baby die what difference would it make if taken or not taken to a hospital. If taken the baby to the hospital would have changed the events then it must not have been God's will. But it seems to be only Gerald that has the spiritual where-withal to determine. Yet when confronted with the fact that he has offended a brother, he refuses to even acknowledge it. He again blames that on the offended because they are weak and can't handle it.
I am just tired of the hypocrisy of it. If Gerald says that it is right then it's right, if he says it doesn't fit scripture then it doesn't. If Gerald doesn't agree with your view of scripture then you become his "target". He decries the hypocrisy of others yet allows his to go unchecked and ignored.
I have heard the argument that Gerald is just a misunderstood soul and if it was a once in a while thing it may be but his rude, demeaning attitude toward others has been a constant on this and the other boards. It may get better for a while but then it come right back to it.
I am glad you have not been offended by him but I can assure you that there are more that have than have not.
I hope this does not put us at odds with one another, but if calling for accountability from a brother who has offended does that then I will apologize to you for it now.

God bless...
DJ

[jessea]

Pastor Don,

You haven't heard enough of my theology to determine how many holes are in it. You do have a sincere heart, one that I hope has been made new, if so, its all good. We all grow at different paces in our faith.

As for Judas, Judas was not an innocent bystander who went down the wrong path. He was chosen by God to be a vessel of dishonor to fulfill Gods plan in the salvation of those He sent Jesus to die for. Yes the bible says Jesus came and gave His life as a ransom for many, not all. Satan does not take innocent people captive. There are no innocent people. Satan has power where sinful passions hold sway. Judas was a lover of money, and he covered it with a phony, external relationship with Jesus. Judas was simply following his master.

Isaiah 53:6 and 10, says, “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. . . . It was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief.” (this is speaking of Christ being crushed by His father)

So behind the betrayal by Judas, behind the spitting and flogging and mocking and piercing is the invisible hand and plan of God. Judas had no choice, he was dead in his sin, and was never given eternal life.

[oletimer]

jessea

Pastor Don,

You haven't heard enough of my theology to determine how many holes are in it. You do have a sincere heart, one that I hope has been made new, if so, its all good. We all grow at different paces in our faith.

From what we have all read there is enough holes in it to make a strainer out of it. The bible when taken in context and rightly divided want back up such a theology. Will we love you and interact with you? Yes. Will we buy into your theology? Most will not.

[soulsearcher]

Theologians and other such riff raff have been arguing free will vs predestination for centuries. So far, no one has come up with an answer that satisfies both sides of the argument. Instead of that, why don't you guys argue about the timeless and important question "Can God create a rock so big even He can't move it?" It'll probably be as fruitful as this...

Well said.

[dolfan]

Pastor Don, as to your comment that the baby who died, that it wouldn't have unless it was God's will, etc.

Let me say something about ideas like this one. No offense intended, but an honest difference of opinion is.

We can't base our decisions on what we think God's will would be. We have to base them on what God, in fact, commands us to do and what He has taught us to do. Yes, we all turn away, all that. But, that's not an excuse. We can't excuse the decision to allow a child to die because we believe that doctors are some sort of "arm of the flesh" (to borrow a phrase) and say, "Well, it's alright because they wouldn't have died if God had not wanted them to."

Recklessness and wrong is judged here and now, among us and by us, because we have the revealed commands and ways of God to direct us, the common sense that He supplied us, and the endless supply of circumstances and resources that He draws our attention to, no matter how we may react to them. He sets the path alright, but we can't go back and judge the rightness of our walk in or out of it based on what ultimately happens. He gives us everything we need to make the right decision on the front end. We can't justify it from the other side. That is the end justifying the means, and that is thoroughly not a biblical teaching. That is the way of man's thought if ever there was one -- it gives rise to all of the relativism we see today. That God ultimately willed it does not make Him responsible for our choices! If that were so, then we would stand as His judge instead of the other way around. So, this idea, however well intended, is a lie from hell.