Rethinking, Revisiting, Relearning

[ImaPK]

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Eph 5:3 ¶ But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5 ¶ This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

I'm still laughing. These were the scriptures I was waiting for. First COG, then COGOP and now TCOG have used these to support their "attitude". "WE ARE GOD'S ONE FOLD". "All the others will be drawn to us."

[Pastor Gary]

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

With all due respect: you can't have it both ways. You can't boast that "we have never taught that people from other churches are not saved" and then proof-text with a verse that says you are special because you are not unequally yoked with "unbelievers."

Which is it? Are they unbelievers, or are you not yoked with the rest of us for some other reason??

[Shepherd]

Pastor Gary,

You should go back and very slowly read what I said.

"Let's celebrate what we have in common and love one another more so than this thread evidences in spite of our differences. On the other hand, I think we should all have a line drawn in the sand as to degrees of fellowship. What fellowship has light with darkness? That's Bible, but we can still love God and our neighbor and be faithful to that principle.

The all includes you. I do not believe that everyone outside TCOG is a sinner, but neither do I believe that everyone outside (or inside, for that matter) is a Christian. Since you believe that there is a degree of fellowship that you can have with all Christians, that you cannot have with unrepentant, practicing, so-called homosexual Christians, we are in agreement with what I meant by a line in the sand. If I didn't draw the line somewhere, I would throw away my Bible and get another job.

I quoted the Scriptures to show that what I had previously said was biblical. How about extending some of the same Hawaiian Christian fellowship to me like you do to all the denominations that you mentioned?

If you consider yourself to be among those whom Paul referred, then I should not fellowship with you in the sense that he meant.

Let me repeat this:

I know you believe you understand what you thing I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

[Pastor Gary]

Pastor Gary,

You should go back and very slowly read what I said.
"Let's celebrate what we have in common and love one another more so than this thread evidences in spite of our differences. On the other hand, I think we should all have a line drawn in the sand as to degrees of fellowship. What fellowship has light with darkness? That's Bible, but we can still love God and our neighbor and be faithful to that principle.

So, maybe you should consider degrees of membership... you know, a person who agrees with half of your doctrine gets a 50% membership, etc.

I am trying to think of a scripture that supports degrees of fellowship.

[Full Quiver]

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Shepherd, do you and your wife agree 100% on all doctrine, belief, etc.? How about you and Race Runner, or One Love, or Chris Hart?

IF you believe you are right, RR has already communicated that she IS right, then if there is any of the slightest disagreement then 1 of you two are not saved according to your use of the above verse.

[one love]

I'm sitting here laughing. Shepherd I have never been a member of any church and I still can see the "attitudes" running through denominations.

On the other hand, I think we should all have a line drawn in the sand as to degrees of fellowship. What fellowship has light with darkness?

THAT is the attitude I am talking about. SERVING GOD is what is going to get you to Heaven. NOT what DENOMINATION you belong to. I've told this story before so bear with me. I worked at Hardwick Stove in Cleveland Tennessee for 4 years in the Quality Control Department. One of the guys I worked with was a PK like myself only he was Baptist. He started EVERY morning with a silent prayer for a good day. At morning break he read his Bible. At lunch he blessed his food and read his Bible. At afternoon break he read his Bible. The guy didn't smoke. He didn't drink. The strongest thing I ever heard him say was "Aw crap". Every Friday he would invite us to church on Sunday. Did he make a show of all of this? NO! This guy was so quiet and humble that you hardly knew he was around. But you know what? Everyone at the plant RESPECTED his WITNESS, be they COG, COGOP, Methodist or any other denomination. Did this guy agree with COGOP doctrine(pre 1993) Some of it yes, some of it no. Did he put down those of other religions? No, he prayed for AND WITH THEM. There were a couple of COGOPers who worked there in other parts of the plant that I KNOW asked him to remember them in prayer. To me he was a better example of a CHRISTIAN then some of those I knew in COGOP(at that time) and some of those I know in TCOG. Believe me when I say this, but since 1961(when my parents joined COGOP)there have been too many times that I have heard it said "THIS(COG, COGOP, TCOG) is the LORD'S CHURCH" Of course I'm just the "resident sinner" here on J2 so what I say don't amount to a hill of beans to the "holier then thou's". But you know what, I don't draw a line in the sand on who I fellowship with. I like the Pharisees AND the Christians.

IMPK I loved your dad very much but I fellowship with many from all kinds of denominations evreyday. As a matter of fact one of my very close friends is a baptist pastor. He knows what church I belong to and I can assure you of one thing, he has never showed some of the hatefullness that some have shown here with their judgemental attitudes because someone may disagree with them.

It is a shame that so many that scream that TCOG is judegemental are being the most judgemental themselves.

Even Paul is now prophesying that

"that is why your organization will never grow"

what love and compassion.........

I get along with ALL my Brothers and sisters in christ it is here only that I see such judgemental attitudes, not from any other groups. Me and my wife are very close with a COG pastor in greensboro that works at the same law firm as her, he is well aware of what I believe and we discuss the bible with love and compassion with one another. None of my friends have ever recieved me as judgemental, self righteous, legalistic etc. Many here have displayed that attitude here though.

Racerunner this is not my forum but I can see why it is percieved that you are being a little rude. I love ya but I would just think about that.

IMAPK none of that was toward you I qouted you only to make a point, again I have so much respect for your family. Your Dad showed me so much respect by understanding my backround and what God delivered me from, he shared some of his experiences that were similar when he was young.

Rambo I thought you looked cool in your kilt I do ask if you would not to make statements that others dont think you are saved. That debate needs to never arise again.


BTW I have been to billync COGOP church that is being built. Visited him at the NC COGOP state convention. Billy have I showed any such attitude?
May God bless

[Pastorbps]

Paul wrote:

You know them by the fruit that they bear.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

So since you believe the "Fruit of the Spirit" are the evidence a person is a Christian then I would assume you believe the "Works of the Flesh" give evidence a person is not a Christian.

Gal 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[one love]

btw IF ANYONE thinks doctrine does not matter then they need to read the new testament again.
What is one claims they need not to be born again to be saved and has no need to repent. Are they still heaven bound? since doctrine does not matter?

Now yes we can disagree over many things and still be saved as long as we are born again and are honest before God! That is all it takes

[one love]

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

With all due respect: you can't have it both ways. You can't boast that "we have never taught that people from other churches are not saved" and then proof-text with a verse that says you are special because you are not unequally yoked with "unbelievers."

Which is it? Are they unbelievers, or are you not yoked with the rest of us for some other reason??

that verse has nothing to do with other christians at all.... really confused at your outlook here?? No where does that state that we feel that those outside of TCOG are not saved.... SOme of you search for that in our post. How many times can we all say we dont feel that way......

[Shepherd]

So, maybe you should consider degrees of membership... you know, a person who agrees with half of your doctrine gets a 50% membership, etc.

I am trying to think of a scripture that supports degrees of fellowship.

OK, I'll play along. You are just trying to yank my chain. You know what I meant.

The American Heritage Dictionary defines "fellowship"
fel·low·ship
NOUN:
1.
1. The condition of sharing similar interests, ideals, or experiences, as by reason of profession, religion, or nationality.
2. The companionship of individuals in a congenial atmosphere and on equal terms.
2. A close association of friends or equals sharing similar interests.
3. Friendship; comradeship.


I may experience what is here defined in popular usage as "fellowship" with my sinner fishing buddies. Such fellowship may establish a relationship that will make them more receptive to the Gospel. However, this does not qualify as the "koinonia" or Christian fellowship of which the NT speaks. There is a sense in which I can have sinner friends without being a friend to the "world". We are commanded to love not the world, but yet are to love the sinners in it.

What I meant by degrees of fellowship is having loving relationships with those with whom I do not enjoy Christian "koinonia". Maybe you are right if you think the word "fellowship" should be reserved for those who are united in Christ. I guess I was just making a feeble attempt to communicate in popular language.

[ImaPK]

One Love said

It is a shame that so many that scream that TCOG is judegemental are being the most judgemental themselves.

I'm sorry if I sounded judgemental, not my intent. The point I was trying to make is that SEVERAL DENOMINATION have the "attitude" that they "are the one".
People please try to understand what I am trying to say. There are CHRISTIANS in ALL denominations. By CHRISTIANS, I mean those who are TRUELY trying their best to live according to what the BIBLE says not what the DOCTRINE says. I challenge anyone in ANY denomination to tell me that they blindly agree with EVERYTHING that their denominational DOCTRINE believes. If you say you do then I say you are a hypocrite. The Bible says to "STUDY to show thyself approved." HE meant HIS approval not some denomination's. If you pray and study on it God will show HIS way to HIS Church. My dad and mom struggled spiritually back in 1993 not knowing which way to go. I asked them constantly what they were going to do, where did they stand. My dad said that he stood for Jesus and that He would show him what to do, that all he could do was pray until he heard from God. My parents were CHRISTIANS first and TCOGers second. If God would have told him he needed him to be a Baptist he would have died a Baptist. If a person believes in a certain DOCTRINE that's what GOD laid on his heart. We've all heard preachers get up and say that "God laid this messege on my heart". God is suppose to be the lead in your life not some denomination. GOD'S CHURCH IS IN YOUR HEART not in some denomination. You pray to GOD. You praise GOD. You love GOD. You serve GOD. You don't pray "Thank you COGOP/TCOG for the blessings in my life" do you? No, you pray to GOD. The point I'm trying(with some difficulty)to make is that there are CHRISTIANS in ALL denominations not just ONE denomination. There are hypocrites and sinners in ALL denominations also, so that right there says that NO ONE DENOMINATION can be the "one fold". If you choose or feel that GOD has chosen you to be TCOG/COGOP/COG/COC/METHODIST/INDEPENDENT or whatever I would be the last one to "judge" you on the choice. Just don't try to tell me that yours is the "one fold". That's just a "holier then thou" attitude and GOD DON'T LIKE THAT ATTITUDE...look it up it's in there. I've said this before on here SEVERAL times, but J2 is the closest thing to a church I have in my life right now. Because of the different "denoms" represented on here it proves one of my points...EVERYONE is trying their best to do what's CHRISTIAN and make it to Heaven. You might not agree with someone's DOCTRINE but with a few exceptions(myself included)I think all of you are doing the best you can. Ok I'll come from behind the pulpit now.

[Full Quiver]

Shepherd, if said "sinner friends" come to your church can they still be your friends? IF they continue in their sins for 10 years while attending your church can you still be friends? IF SO, then I applaud you!!! I honestly do!

IF so then why criticize other churches for having "sinners" among their congregations? TCoG, and I know because I was a member, criticizes other churches for having sinners among them. Now you may say not you, One Love may say not him, BUT you guys are ONE BODY are you not. So you cannot claim the good of being ONE BODY and yet separate yourselves from said body when parts of it do wrong. That indeed is Scriptural.

[ImaPK]

One Love said

What if one claims they need not to be born again to be saved and has no need to repent. Are they still heaven bound? since doctrine does not matter?

That's BIBLICAL not DOCTRINAL...ya know"except a man be born again he cannot enter in...."

[Shepherd]

One Love said

What if one claims they need not to be born again to be saved and has no need to repent. Are they still heaven bound? since doctrine does not matter?

That's BIBLICAL not DOCTRINAL...ya know"except a man be born again he cannot enter in...."

That is Biblical doctrine. "Doctrine" is a Bible word. The word "doctrine" is used at least 50 times in the Bible.

(De 32:2; Job 11:4; Pr 4:2; Isa 28:9; Isa 29:24; Jer 10:8; Mt 7:28; 16:12; 22:33; Mr 1:22, 27; 4:2; 11:18; 12:38; Lu 4:32; Joh 7:16, 17; 18:19; Ac 2:42; 5:28; 13:12; 17:19; Ro 6:17; 16:17; 1Co 14:6, 26; Eph 4:14; 1Ti 1:3, 10; 4:13, 16; 5:17; 6:1, 3; 2Ti 3:10, 16; 4:2, 3; Tit 1:9; 2:1, 7, 10; Heb 6:1, 2; 2Jo 1:9,10; Re 2:14, 15, 24).

[Shepherd]

[quote="Full Quiver"]Shepherd, if said "sinner friends" come to your church can they still be your friends? /quote]

If I can still be friends with Poimen, I can be friends with anybody.