COGOP ARK report

[dawgs10]

trust me guys, i want whats best for the church world wide and north america. it will hurt alot of people to sale or close FOTW. it means alot to me. it means alot to the church i have been raised in. it means alot to many more people as well. do what you want with office space and classrooms. if i attend it will be online anyway and i am in driving distance. but FOTW is not office space. it has the same connections to some as TC did to others when they closed it. and closing TC lost a generation of ministers in the Southeast United States. it will be a very big deal in the southeast if they close it and alot of money that COGOP operates on comes from the southeast united states. i just want whats best and pray that wisdom is used.

[Pastor Gary]

I am glad HQ is open to a an outside "non-biased" view of things. I like the idea of moving HQ onto the campus area of TC. I think that makes good sense. As for FOTW, i am honestly not sure if those outside of the SE have any really connections to it. I like the idea of selling it. Taking the funds and using them for Global Outreach, not just outreach in the FOTW area.

the issue is that there are more members in 4 or 5 states in the southeast than the rest of north america. and i think most of them have a very strong connection.

And there are more members in ONE African nation than in the entirety of North America, and those members will never set foot near FOTW.

i agree, but we are not talking about closing something that africa has supported and loved and used for generations either.

Might I (gently) challenge the underlying attitude and assumption behind that statement?

Your post suggests something I often hear in religious circles; the golden rule -- he who has the gold, makes the rules.

Is the view of a saint of God, a COGOP covenant member in a third-world country worthy of less consideration because they live outside the U.S. in poverty... because they will never see the three story building on Keith Street, the old TC campus or Burger Mountain? Some people in the Bible belt have given thousands of dollars in mission and CPMA funds over the decades, but some of our people in far away places have given their all... put their very lives on the line for the cause. Please don't fall back upon the historic financial support argument.

[germanshepherd]

I guess I feel that I must address the statement

we've all put money, time, and sacrifice into this church.

For me and I am only speaking for me. I have not put my money, my time, or my sacrifice into this church. I have given my money, my time, and my sacrifice to God; it did happen to go through this church. However, I gave, worked, planted, etc because God moved upon my heart to do so; not because of a church. I gave it to God and I choose to leave it to God. Yes, there has been mismanagement in the past; I will not ignore that. However, I will not let it hinder me in doing what God is calling me to do today. For me, the cry for those that are lost rings louder in my ears than the cry for my past. There are people right here in Cleveland that are hopelessly lost in sin, looking for the love and compassion of Christ. I choose to make that my focus--those around me that I can touch and reach that I might save some. I believe that the greatest call of Christ to the Church is to reach the lost.

[dawgs10]

I am glad HQ is open to a an outside "non-biased" view of things. I like the idea of moving HQ onto the campus area of TC. I think that makes good sense. As for FOTW, i am honestly not sure if those outside of the SE have any really connections to it. I like the idea of selling it. Taking the funds and using them for Global Outreach, not just outreach in the FOTW area.

the issue is that there are more members in 4 or 5 states in the southeast than the rest of north america. and i think most of them have a very strong connection.

And there are more members in ONE African nation than in the entirety of North America, and those members will never set foot near FOTW.

i agree, but we are not talking about closing something that africa has supported and loved and used for generations either.

Might I (gently) challenge the underlying attitude and assumption behind that statement?

Your post suggests something I often hear in religious circles; the golden rule -- he who has the gold, makes the rules.

Is the view of a saint of God, a COGOP covenant member in a third-world country worthy of less consideration because they live outside the U.S. in poverty... because they will never see the three story building on Keith Street, the old TC campus or Burger Mountain? Some people in the Bible belt have given thousands of dollars in mission and CPMA funds over the decades, but some of our people in far away places have given their all... put their very lives on the line for the cause. Please don't fall back upon the historic financial support argument.

your statement is true and i am not trying to do that. what i am saying is this is why it is so important to those people in the southeast. thats all. i can never put in words the respect i have for those people in far away places that have given their all. the work in the northwest united states is no less important than the southeast united states as far as north america goes. but that makes fotw no less important to thousands.

[PastorDaniel]

Bro. Todd,

This is all true. And I have the same passion. Trust me when I say that I'm not hung up on "The Church." It really becomes an issue of trust and stewardship. The church (all churches, methodist, baptist, pentecostal, catholic, cog, cogop) are supposed to be a witness for God and His kindom upon this earth. So when I say I'm giving time, money, and sacrifice to a church.....to me....it's the same thing. Churches are supposed to be good stewards of the resources of God. We can't just blindly give and expect not to be held accountable in stewardship. I understand your point. But please don't twist mine into something I didn't intend.

Daniel

[Pastorbps]

FOTW was important when we felt guided by the vision of those who began the COG. Since that vision no longer guides us, then there is really no reason to look back at the past. In fact, we have worked hard to break with our past so it seems logical to get rid of FOTW. We probably need to close it down and put a big "OPPS" sign over the entrance arch.

It does seem quite a shame that we hold no resemblance to our roots. Many of the "old timers" who joined the COGOP because they held their vision of "One Church" used to support it sacrificially (Financially speaking) and most of them were in the southeast U.S.. Recently, the COGOP has gone a different direction, rejected the vision of the past and asked those same people to continue to give sacrificially. They didn't. We feared their reaction so we kept certain things around like FOTW but now many of them have died off or left for TCOG or ZACOG and therefore there is no need to appease them anymore. Now the financial support rests upon those who have been encouraged to think "local first" and to develop their own "individual" vision. This has led to an "independent" spirit among many local congregations. The naive International Offices who encouraged their independence is left scratching their heads as to why they won't support programs and endeavors which transcend the local church such as a college or the International Offices. They have rejected the vision of the past, even speaking as though they were ashamed of it. They then wonder why local churches don't support FOTW (Go figure).

As far as I'm concerned the IO can do whatever they want to do. It will have a difficult time propelling this organization forward until they come up with a vision as to why this organization exists as a "separate" entity within Christianity. If we are no different then why try to start a COGOP in another country? There is already a work going on in these nations started by the Baptists, Methodists, COG, etc. If we are all the same, then why not just support them? Why support a COGOP missionary when we can support missionaries from other organizations just as easily?
You think I'm wrong or just cynical? Then lets look at the facts. How many states are involved in programs to start a new church in cities within their states with no COGOP presence? Not nearly as many as there used to be and the reason is simple. In the past we felt called and obligated to get "the Church" to every city. Now, since all churches are the same, there is no motivation to start a COGOP in another city since there is already a good Baptist church and a good COG.
Vision propels you. If you don't have an "Organizational Vision" then your organization cannot long exist.

The statements about other nations are true to an extent. I have met people from South America who were very excited to visit Fields of the Wood when they arrived in the U.S.
As far as the Southeast benefiting most, that is probably true but it is also true the COG came into existence in the southeast. It doesn't make it a better place just a statement of fact. If it had come into existence in Africa then FOTW would be in Africa and the people there would feel a stronger attachment and would have the privilege of visiting it more than those in the U.S.

When I was a kid they used to promote CPMA by using the COI as an example. They marked places to remind themselves of where they had come from, who they were, and what God had done for them. I think that is still a good idea. If FOTW doesn't convey that vision then close it and put something up to remind us of our vision.

BTW - My personal opinion is that we should have "tweaked" the vision of the past and not obliterated it.

[paul]

FOTW was important when we felt guided by the vision of those who began the COG. Since that vision no longer guides us, then there is really no reason to look back at the past. In fact, we have worked hard to break with our past so it seems logical to get rid of FOTW. We probably need to close it down and put a big "OPPS" sign over the entrance arch.

It does seem quite a shame that we hold no resemblance to our roots. Many of the "old timers" who joined the COGOP because they held their vision of "One Church" used to support it sacrificially (Financially speaking) and most of them were in the southeast U.S.. Recently, the COGOP has gone a different direction, rejected the vision of the past and asked those same people to continue to give sacrificially. They didn't. We feared their reaction so we kept certain things around like FOTW but now many of them have died off or left for TCOG or ZACOG and therefore there is no need to appease them anymore. Now the financial support rests upon those who have been encouraged to think "local first" and to develop their own "individual" vision. This has led to an "independent" spirit among many local congregations. The naive International Offices who encouraged their independence is left scratching their heads as to why they won't support programs and endeavors which transcend the local church such as a college or the International Offices. They have rejected the vision of the past, even speaking as though they were ashamed of it. They then wonder why local churches don't support FOTW (Go figure).

As far as I'm concerned the IO can do whatever they want to do. It will have a difficult time propelling this organization forward until they come up with a vision as to why this organization exists as a "separate" entity within Christianity. If we are no different then why try to start a COGOP in another country? There is already a work going on in these nations started by the Baptists, Methodists, COG, etc. If we are all the same, then why not just support them? Why support a COGOP missionary when we can support missionaries from other organizations just as easily?
You think I'm wrong or just cynical? Then lets look at the facts. How many states are involved in programs to start a new church in cities within their states with no COGOP presence? Not nearly as many as there used to be and the reason is simple. In the past we felt called and obligated to get "the Church" to every city. Now, since all churches are the same, there is no motivation to start a COGOP in another city since there is already a good Baptist church and a good COG.
Vision propels you. If you don't have an "Organizational Vision" then your organization cannot long exist.

The statements about other nations are true to an extent. I have met people from South America who were very excited to visit Fields of the Wood when they arrived in the U.S.
As far as the Southeast benefiting most, that is probably true but it is also true the COG came into existence in the southeast. It doesn't make it a better place just a statement of fact. If it had come into existence in Africa then FOTW would be in Africa and the people there would feel a stronger attachment and would have the privilege of visiting it more than those in the U.S.

When I was a kid they used to promote CPMA by using the COI as an example. They marked places to remind themselves of where they had come from, who they were, and what God had done for them. I think that is still a good idea. If FOTW doesn't convey that vision then close it and put something up to remind us of our vision.

BTW - My personal opinion is that we should have "tweaked" the vision of the past and not obliterated it.

Dead on.....a great and in my oponion a very insightful analysis.

[oletimer]

Well said

[sinceresoldier]

I agree. Very well said.

[JustJay]

Hi,

Its been a while since I've posted here but I will take the bait.

I read the recommendation and agree with the Keith street property selling and TC fixup. I do however think it will be a HOT discussion on the assembly business floor.

Maybe do a joint cost share/ownership with COG, ZaCOG, TCOG, etc.? I dont know. We used to really push CPMA or heritage membership at 10 bucks per head annually. That has declined unfortunately.

We do realize that it has to pass a proxy vote? Only pastors or designees can vote. So if Africa has more proxies, then it doesnt matter. It only has to have general consensus.

I can live either way.

Also, I do like the idea of some accomodations/resort put there but again....cost.

P.S. I am a pastor also.

[MacUser]

Hey read thought I might as well post this much older multipage postcard for historical reading... since it's all going to be gone soon.





I've even got the coins and other postcards.

[darylscook]

We do realize that it has to pass a proxy vote? Only pastors or designees can vote. So if Africa has more proxies, then it doesnt matter. It only has to have general consensus.

P.S. I am a pastor also.

You must have been watching the way our last State Overseer did business . But is it supposed to be Overwhelming Consensus not General Consensus.

Pastor Daryl

[lance82]

Dawgs10 wrote, "your statement is true and i am not trying to do that. what i am saying is this is why it is so important to those people in the southeast. thats all. i can never put in words the respect i have for those people in far away places that have given their all. the work in the northwest united states is no less important than the southeast united states as far as north america goes. but that makes fotw no less important to thousands."

Response: If it is so important to people, why don't they support and keep it open without placing a drain on ministry funds? 2000 people at $50/yr would cover the $100,000. Bump that up to 5000 people and you get $250,000/year. Get those "thousands" to put their money where their mouths are!
I just called FOTW and was told by the lady who answered that they have over 100,000 visitors a year. Why can't it pay for itself? That's 274 people per day, 7days a week, 365 days a year. 5 bucks a head = $500,000/year? That's pretty simple math!!
$100,000 a year(just in losses, not including other funds sent in to support it) would go a long way towards feeding hungry people or promoting evangelism efforts at home and abroad. It can't be much of an evangelism tool. We lost the VOS ministries and it was a visible worldwide TV and radio ministry reaching out to untold millions. Why should we keep this place open just to keep people happy?

[oletimer]

lance82 I notice that you are puting your guotes down and then writing in the word "Response:" to seperate your thoughts. If you would go a head and put down the quote down as you have ben doing, then highlight the quote, move your cucer to the word quote at the top of the reply box. This will highlight your quote when you submit. Hope this has been a help to you.

[lance82]

Thanks oletimer!!