tithing

[scooter]

I will tithe like Jacob tithed, not of a law but from honor and recognition of who blesses me.

[lance82]

I will tithe like Jacob tithed, not of a law but from honor and recognition of who blesses me.

Jacob vowed a conditional tithe to God. Did he actually ever tithe? There is no record that I can find.

Please understand, I am not telling anyone not to tithe if they feel they should. I am saying do that and give sacrificially if you can, but you won't be cursed if you don't. No matter what or how you do it, to do it cheerfully or it will not be pleasing to the Lord.

[Poimen]

I will tithe ... not of a law but from honor and recognition of who blesses me.

Wonderful! And that's perfectly acceptable in accord with NT principles of giving.

[Poimen]

duplicate post.

[Poimen]

triple duplicate

[Poimen]

double duplicate

[Pastor Bill]

we should be looking for opportunities to serve God rather than looking for ways to cut back on what we give.

With all love/respect brother and not responding to anything other than this statement on my reply here. Nobody is cutting back on anything by understanding Truth. Truth trumps indoctrination from every facet. Jesus said the Truth will set you FREE. Our first goal should be understanding and teaching Truth as it relates to the Covenant we are under. We apparently have a ripe opportunity for such teaching today.

but in our pursuit of truth, are we really seeking truth, or seeking to get out from under this teaching? Those that I have seen push the hardest against tithing aren't seeking truth, but are doing so out of greed, I teach a very balanced grace, we are under grace, but that is not a license to do anything or reject any standards in our life. We are not under the law, but the law did teach some solid principles that can help us make good decisions. The law won't save us, but Grace saves us, then we can use the law to guide us, not enslave us as it once did.

It was not put out as a requirement for salvation or church membership, but a standard of financial management and planning.

Wonderful.. if this is the model..... but has it been really taught this way? Seriously? Or is it been imposed that God will Bless You ( + ) if you do and you not Bless You ( - ) if you don't? I can recall countless times.

Why do we teach receiving and trusting the Spirit for our Salvation and yet return to religious dead laws when it relates to finances? Why can we not trust the Spirit also in this matter? All my above scripture references still apply. They stands without challenge.

please don't include me on that "we" because it doesn't describe my ministry, the model that I described is exactly what I preach.

I submit let us Show the LOVE of Christ, Teach people whom they are under the New Covenant and FREE THEM. Then trust the Spirit to bring the increase. Anything else to manipulate / pressure / for false blessings could be considered DEAD works.

Jeremiah 31:31-34

31 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

It's all about Him. Behold the Lamb!

I will agree, with one addition, rather than running from the law, why don't we put it in context for what it is under the new covenant, a guide, we do need to preach grace, and set people free, but in that freedom they can still seek guidance and instruction from God's Word within the law as long as they keep it in context as exampled above.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Pastor Bill]

Actually Lance, I know the official answer from HQ, they have a nice DVD series on financial management including one on tithing, I now only have watched it, watched it with the church where I used to pastor and discussed it as well as own it.

It was taught that tithing is an act of obedience, and a blessing, and that it's more about out attitude, we should be looking for opportunities to serve God rather than looking for ways to cut back on what we give.

It was not put out as a requirement for salvation or church membership, but a standard of financial management and planning.

An act of obedience to what? HQ or God. Again... it is preached and taught that a curse is coming if not done, and that simply does not line up with any scripture that I can find. Giving is a blessing. Giving freely and joyfully, whether it be 1% or 100% as led by the Spirit. Why do we get legalistice about money and not time managemant, prayer time, personal evangelism...?

I have never suggested that anyone look for ways to cut back. Rather that we give sacrificailly. Personally, I am always looking at how I can give, do, and be more for Christ than I have been in the past; whether it be monetarily, physically, relationally, spiritually, or what have you. Always a success? No, but still trying.

Both, I tithe to my local church because that is a good start for my giving, and planning that into my budget fits the model the law set for me, and I believe is in obedience to God, not as a law or tax that I am under, but as a guideline he provided for me to measure myself against, I tithed of my ministerial income to the state office, tithing because of the above reasons, to the state office because that is the way our organization as set up to fund our state offices. Offerings other than this, I don't really keep track of, but just give as lead by the spirit.

It's also important to note that His Spirit has led me to be faithful in the tithes, not from teachings from HQ (I've not always been in the CoGoP or even in a denomination that taught tithing)

As for the teaching of curses, you keep saying that, but I have told you more than once, I am not and do not teach it that way, nor has it been taught that way to me by my leaders in this organization, including the "official word" from HQ, so rather than continuing to use that misinformation to further your point, it would be best to stick to truth.

[Pastor Bill]

I will tithe like Jacob tithed, not of a law but from honor and recognition of who blesses me.

Jacob vowed a conditional tithe to God. Did he actually ever tithe? There is no record that I can find.

Please understand, I am not telling anyone not to tithe if they feel they should. I am saying do that and give sacrificially if you can, but you won't be cursed if you don't. No matter what or how you do it, to do it cheerfully or it will not be pleasing to the Lord.

Neither is anyone else here teaching that, but you tend to push that misinformation to try to prove your point, and yes you are telling everyone not to tithe, but to "cheerfully give" Of course if we are Cheerfully giving our tithe we are putting people under the law according to your posts.

[dawgs10]

dawgs10 wrote, :"um yes., because the Bible tells us to. the fact is Jesus put his stamp of approval on somethings that were under law. so i will side with Jesus on this one."

Response: Seriously... you keep all of the laws of Moses? Do you even realize what they were? Are you even reading what I am asking you?

Yes... please... side with Jesus.

thats not what i said. i keep those that Jesus put his stamp on. remember he did not end the law, he fullfilled it.

[lance82]

Pastor Bill wrote, "As for the teaching of curses, you keep saying that, but I have told you more than once, I am not and do not teach it that way, nor has it been taught that way to me by my leaders in this organization, including the "official word" from HQ, so rather than continuing to use that misinformation to further your point, it would be best to stick to truth."

Response: Sir, I assure you that there is no untruth in any of my earlier posts. Every quote that I made in regards to HQ responses have been directly made to me or I read them in emails to others. I have personally sat in services where the curse was preached by HQ rep in the last 5 years. All of the quotes I gave you have been in the last 3 years as I and others have sought out council to better understand what the NT and OT really have to say about this topic.

I'm not sure how you translate what I am saying into, "you are telling everyone not to tithe, but to "cheerfully give". Of course if we are Cheerfully giving our tithe we are putting people under the law according to your posts." I said,
1. "Please understand, I am not telling anyone not to tithe if they feel they should. I am saying do that and give sacrificially if you can, but you won't be cursed if you don't. No matter what or how you do it, to do it cheerfully or it will not be pleasing to the Lord."
2."If the Spirit leads YOU to tithe, do so. However it is not your place to require it of others. Only the Spirit has that right."
2. " I have never suggested that anyone look for ways to cut back. Rather that we give sacrificially."
You have twisted the truth here, not I. Go back and read the posts again for yourself.

Again, I have asked several questions that no one arguing for the teaching of a tithe or a "standard" seems to want to address...
1. Why do we get legalistic about money and not time management, prayer time, personal evangelism...?
2. What if we called on the people to meet needs, instead of tithing? Don't you think God knows what the needs are and is able to motivate His people to get them covered?
3. We have been taught for so long that tithing is the way, that we believe that there must be some standard taught. Where does the NT even say that?
4. The tithes required in the OT were various and never included cash income that I can find. Even when Jesus addressed the Pharisees, He was referring to only the foods tithe as they were required by the Law of Moses. The food tithe ended up being closer to 23 % annually than just the 10% we teach today. I cannot find anywhere where people gaining their income from anything other than the production of food are required to tithe anything; and those producing foods were required to tithe the food, not money, or pay an added penalty for doing so. Why aren't we teaching this?

I issued a couple of challenges as well...
1. "... contact HQ with any questions about tithing and... number one, see if you get a reply... number two, if you do get an answer, be prepared for the answers I quoted in the earlier post. Then please share the responses here."
2. Show me Biblical examples of NT or OT requirements for tithing on ones income aside from the tithing of food.
... any takers?

The thread was started by asking for honest discussion. All I keep getting is traditional rhetoric, "we need to teach it as a standard", or answers from scriptures used out of context. True, some have said that they don't believe it is a requirement and they don't teach it as such. This is not aimed at you. But the major question still is "what does the NT have to say on the matter?"; as it should be with any teaching/doctrine that we subscribe to.

Dawgs10, I'm leaving you out of these requests because it is evident to me that you are not open to discussion due to the way you have been taught; and are unwilling to look at the scriptures in context. However. you said earlier when asked if you kept Matt 23:2-3, "um yes., because the Bible tells us to. the fact is Jesus put his stamp of approval on somethings that were under law. so i will side with Jesus on this one." Then later you said, "thats not what i said. i keep those that Jesus put his stamp on. remember he did not end the law, he fullfilled it." When I asked if you truly kept all of the Laws of Moses(He said to keep everything the Pharisees said in verse 3). How do you separate that from the comment he made on tithing? He put his stamp on both.... to the Jews who were still living under the Law of Moses, not NT believers. Acts 15 sums up the rest. What say ye?

[MacUser]

but in our pursuit of truth, are we really seeking truth, or seeking to get out from under this teaching? Those that I have seen push the hardest against tithing aren't seeking truth, but are doing so out of greed, I teach a very balanced grace, we are under grace, but that is not a license to do anything or reject any standards in our life. We are not under the law, but the law did teach some solid principles that can help us make good decisions. The law won't save us, but Grace saves us, then we can use the law to guide us, not enslave us as it once did.

OOhhhh.. Yes I am.... Seeking the absolute Truth regardless of what sacred cows it runs over. Is Truth only good when it works within your organization or group? Or is truth Truth regardless? Truth trumps indoctrination every single time. Just because it's a good teaching and you are keeping it because you agree that that Law was GOOD... Paul is clear that if you keep any of the law.. you must keep it all. He is clear on not letting anyone bewitch you concerning this. If your Grace teaching is based on a mixture of covenants... it's not TRUTH. I didn't make this up. See my above scripture references. It's absolutely clear. Why do we continue to trust in the written Law when we have the indwelling of the SPIRIT!!

I will agree, with one addition, rather than running from the law, why don't we put it in context for what it is under the new covenant, a guide, we do need to preach grace, and set people free, but in that freedom they can still seek guidance and instruction from God's Word within the law as long as they keep it in context as exampled above.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Yes context... Ooohhh Brother You are so close. The GUIDE is CHRIST! Why do we seek guidance from a faded outdated photograph... when He's STANDING right in front of us? I pray revelation on you as you continue to seek on this matter. You have nothing to Fear in Christ.


Romans 7:1-6 (ESCV)

1. Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? 2. For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.
3. Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

4. Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

* The passion of my heart near exploding!*
Behold the LAMB!!

[Pastor Bill]

Lance, you are stuck trying to prove you're point and you're not reading my posts, I have answered your questions and challenges, and I have stated that I'm not preaching it as a curse or salvation requirement, but yes it is a good standard to live by, and yes I believe the Spirit will lead people there just as he has done me, but yes I also teach it as a standard that Christ has taught me, just as I would teaching any other application of scripture to my life.

You are stating we are wrong to teach that tithing is appropriate and will be blessed by God, you asked me to seek HQ "official answer" and I told you I have it, in DVD form, and explained it to you, are there some that may be more heavy handed on it than needed? probably, are there some that are pushing the point of grace too far into wreckless abandon of any standards of living in Christ, yes, but I'm not judging you by those examples, there is a balance in this, and it's not about throwing out the law as useless and outdated, it's about putting it in context with the grace we have received, we are no longer under the law, but the law is not evil, it was God's Word given to guide men before the sacrifice of Christ would fulfill it.

Christ taught from the law, and explained that the law was created for man, not man for the law, we are not under the burden of the law, but we can draw from it's wisdom, and in doing so we are blessed by that wisdom, and the fruit it bears.

[Pastor Bill]

Macuser, Don't take this personally, I wasn't speaking specifically about you, but most that push against tithing are doing it seeking a release from giving, not truth.

I know you seek truth, and I'd say you probably give 10% or more, which qualifies as tithing. BUT let's take this from another direction... what was the purpose of the law? Was it God's way of oppressing man prior to Christ? (I know that is what men twisted it into at times) Or was it God's word meant to guide their lives? Now I understand we are to be led by the Spirit, but would His Spirit contradict His word? or would they complement and work together?

I know many who seek to be led only by the spirit, and throw out scripture, doing only what they feel the Spirit leads them to, and they are led astray, because at times they aren't listening quite right or are led astray by their own lusts. God's Word is Truth, and His Spirit is Truth, If we use his Word to guide our lives, allowing the Spirit to lead us the two together work in harmony. I can plan on paying my tithes faithfully because I know that is a guideline God set for me in His word, and be led of his Spirit in how to give as well, it's not a contradiction as some here want to make it out, and it's not a bondage, but it is a way for me to check my own heart and my own spirit to know that I am following.

Have I ever missed paying my tithes, yes, and God's not sending me to hell for it, but I also have been led by the Spirit to plan for that in my budget and in being faithful to that God blesses me, when I am not faithful in that, yes I struggle, not due to a curse, but any unfaithfulness hurts my relationship with God, and that in itself is a struggle.

It's no different than attending church, God isn't going to send me to hell for missing a service, but I lack the blessings of that fellowship, corporate worship, the strength from my brothers and sisters in the Lord, I miss out on the opportunity to minister to someone else, to be there for them in their time of need, etc. Is it a burden? well if you want to look at it that way, then I guess you've got the wrong attitude about it, and you should stop (and yes I have told people when I was their pastor if they felt obligated to do something then to stop, and seek God again for direction).

It's not about the money, it's not about the burden, it's about being faithful to what God has asked of us. Through His Word, and His Spirit. When serving God feels like and obligation, it's time to look into our own hearts and find what is wrong, and where God can lead us to make it right.

[Full Quiver]

Dawgs, I'm going to argue with you from your point of view that Jesus was approving the Jewish tithing system and thus applying it to Christians.

Notice that HE specifically pointed out their extremes, their fanaticism, their legalism in that they gave a tenth of their herbs.

My direct question to you, since you so loudly & proudly support this system is, do you tithe on gifts?

do you tithe on any products you grow in your garden (if you have or ever had one)?

Do you pay tithe if someone buys you lunch therefore increasing the money you have in your pocket?

Do you tithe on the earned income child tax credit?

Do you weigh your french fries from McDonald's and if they gave you too many do you pay tithe on that increase?

If you get free generic drugs from your insurance or medicare do you tithe on that increase?

If your insurance pays out more than you paid in in deductibles and premiums do you tithe that increase?

If you ever failed to tithe did you pay the OT interest penalty on that tithe?

And yes I am serious.

If you answer NO to any of these then you do not believe what Jesus told the Pharisees to be a Christian practice.