There has been a stunning silence from the women of Jude2 on a well-read thread concerning the general topic of rape and sexual abuse. If we can divorce this topic from the specifics of any recent thread and/or personal case, and speak in the abstract and theoretical, I would love to hear from the ladies on this.
A small caveat: While both are unacceptable acts of violation, I lean toward the belief that there may be a difference in degree between "date rape" and violent, hostile predatory rape. You may agree or disagree, but I think our culture supports this difference with stuff like "Maybe I mean Yes!".
If you feel awkward speaking out under your name, you can take the poll with no post, but I would really love to hear your views.
Women only, please
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Pastor Gary
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Women only, please
"God is excited to show you mercy. He rises to give you His compassion." (Isaiah 30:18)
"For surely, O LORD, you bless the righteous; you surround them with your favor as with a shield." (Psalm 5:12)
"For surely, O LORD, you bless the righteous; you surround them with your favor as with a shield." (Psalm 5:12)
I shared my views in the other post, but I will drop a note here.
Every single situation is different. I see the extreme of if a girl hollers rape, it's rape regardless of circumstance, situation, or factors. If she says it, it is so.
Scooter worked with a man whose wife cried rape after a fight they had. Although she recanted later by saying she made it up because she was angry, he was convicted and served time.
I do not dismiss a woman's ability to lie, cry, and manipulate just because they cry foul later due to regret of what they got themselves into.
Again, every situation is different.
I believe if you put yourself into a position to be raped, you possibly carry some of the weight. And like Pastor Gary mentioned, there are extreme differences between a forced violent rape and many, many different factors of "date rape."
If you find yourself in a back bedroom of a party after having too much to drink, you've allowed a little "feeling up", and then you back out..........................NO< HE HAS EVERY RESPONSIBILITY TO STOP WHEN YOU SAY SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But, is it your fault you are drunk, in a back bedroom, (that you weren't dragged to by the way), and already engaged in foreplay?
Again, you can't pigeon hole this issue because of a multitude of factors. Every situation is different.
Every single situation is different. I see the extreme of if a girl hollers rape, it's rape regardless of circumstance, situation, or factors. If she says it, it is so.
Scooter worked with a man whose wife cried rape after a fight they had. Although she recanted later by saying she made it up because she was angry, he was convicted and served time.
I do not dismiss a woman's ability to lie, cry, and manipulate just because they cry foul later due to regret of what they got themselves into.
Again, every situation is different.
I believe if you put yourself into a position to be raped, you possibly carry some of the weight. And like Pastor Gary mentioned, there are extreme differences between a forced violent rape and many, many different factors of "date rape."
If you find yourself in a back bedroom of a party after having too much to drink, you've allowed a little "feeling up", and then you back out..........................NO< HE HAS EVERY RESPONSIBILITY TO STOP WHEN YOU SAY SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But, is it your fault you are drunk, in a back bedroom, (that you weren't dragged to by the way), and already engaged in foreplay?
Again, you can't pigeon hole this issue because of a multitude of factors. Every situation is different.
There never was a horse that couldn't be rode and there never was a cowboy that couldn't be throwed.
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Penny
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Rape and Sexual/sexual assault is WRONG.
In all cases. There is never a reason for this to be ok.
It dose not mater if the lady has been drinking an bud light, or using durgs to impare her thinking, that is not saying come on baby let me and you have sex.
When a lady saids no. It means NO. I do not buy into I say no but i mean yes.
I have never been raped or sexual assaulted. But I know of a few people who have. None of them ask for this to happen. It happened.
None ask for it. I do not think anyone ask to be raped. Why would anyone want to to be hurt in that way.
In all cases. There is never a reason for this to be ok.
It dose not mater if the lady has been drinking an bud light, or using durgs to impare her thinking, that is not saying come on baby let me and you have sex.
When a lady saids no. It means NO. I do not buy into I say no but i mean yes.
I have never been raped or sexual assaulted. But I know of a few people who have. None of them ask for this to happen. It happened.
None ask for it. I do not think anyone ask to be raped. Why would anyone want to to be hurt in that way.
New to board..
I am new to the board, and am glad I found it. Thank you for making this place so others can come, share, pray and vent.
I am a rape victim. I was raped when I was 24. It was someone I thought was a friend. I trusted him as a friend. God watched over me, for after he was done, he kept riding in circles around our river. I kept praying, "God, please don't let that be where he is going to put me next". Finally, God gave me words that seemed to make him stop driving me around and drop me off at my car instead.
I confided in a friend when I came home. She, in turn, told me it was my fault for being with a friend that was male. She threw me out of the house I shared with her. I was left alone, feeling dirty and ashamed.
I have been counseling rape victims for the past 7 years for volunteer work. I have offered safe harbor to others that, because of the system we have that inflicts shame and judgment caused them to fear for their life.
NO ONE ASKS FOR RAPE. No one deserves rape. No one, no matter what they are doing, or where they are or who they are with, is asking to be raped. PURE AND SIMPLE. Unless someone is in those shoes, they tend to be able to see things in a different light. Hindsight is 20/20. I wasnt dressed provocatively, didn't go with someone to get drunk, wasn't in their bedroom..but even if I was--If NO is said, it means NO!
This is why most rape victims dont report rape. Judgment and the feelings of worthlessness make most stay quiet. Therefore, more rapists are free to continue their addiction. Rape is an act of violence, not about the sex. If they do it once, they WILL do it again.
Do people lie about rape? yes. Very rarely, and it is usually a child that gets pregnant and afraid of her parents. Or, there are vendettas that some use rape as a way to GET THEM BACK. But 95% of all rapes are true rape.
I had my say. If anyone wants to email me for support or help, I will gladly respond.
I am a rape victim. I was raped when I was 24. It was someone I thought was a friend. I trusted him as a friend. God watched over me, for after he was done, he kept riding in circles around our river. I kept praying, "God, please don't let that be where he is going to put me next". Finally, God gave me words that seemed to make him stop driving me around and drop me off at my car instead.
I confided in a friend when I came home. She, in turn, told me it was my fault for being with a friend that was male. She threw me out of the house I shared with her. I was left alone, feeling dirty and ashamed.
I have been counseling rape victims for the past 7 years for volunteer work. I have offered safe harbor to others that, because of the system we have that inflicts shame and judgment caused them to fear for their life.
NO ONE ASKS FOR RAPE. No one deserves rape. No one, no matter what they are doing, or where they are or who they are with, is asking to be raped. PURE AND SIMPLE. Unless someone is in those shoes, they tend to be able to see things in a different light. Hindsight is 20/20. I wasnt dressed provocatively, didn't go with someone to get drunk, wasn't in their bedroom..but even if I was--If NO is said, it means NO!
This is why most rape victims dont report rape. Judgment and the feelings of worthlessness make most stay quiet. Therefore, more rapists are free to continue their addiction. Rape is an act of violence, not about the sex. If they do it once, they WILL do it again.
Do people lie about rape? yes. Very rarely, and it is usually a child that gets pregnant and afraid of her parents. Or, there are vendettas that some use rape as a way to GET THEM BACK. But 95% of all rapes are true rape.
I had my say. If anyone wants to email me for support or help, I will gladly respond.
In His Name,
K4J
K4J
k4j,
You said:
Not one person here has said that anyone deserves or asks for rape. Not one person.
Your friend was wrong.
I am glad that you have found victory in your life and I think it's wonderful that you are willing to counsel and help young women to recover.
May God bless you in your work.
You said:
NO ONE ASKS FOR RAPE. No one deserves rape. No one, no matter what they are doing, or where they are or who they are with, is asking to be raped.
Not one person here has said that anyone deserves or asks for rape. Not one person.
Your friend was wrong.
I am glad that you have found victory in your life and I think it's wonderful that you are willing to counsel and help young women to recover.
May God bless you in your work.
There never was a horse that couldn't be rode and there never was a cowboy that couldn't be throwed.
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Pastor Don
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I think there must be a little mis-understanding
I think, and I am not speaking for Gary, from what I have read of Gary's question, there has been a little misunderstanding.
First, the question asks-- are there circumstances in which the person who has been asaulted my SHARE some of the responsibility. Now this does not mean they are asking for it, or that thay are to blame.
For example: I go to a friends house. He and other friends are there engauged in the use of illicit drugs. The smoke is heavy in the air and many are very intoxicated. A next door neighbor sees and hears the the party that is going on and call's the police. They arrive and bust everyone on the spot, no questions asked. I have not participated at all in the use of the drugs. IN NO WAY.
Now the question has to be asked... do I share in ANY responsibility? The answer is of course YES. I knew what they were doing was against the law and if there was a problem, I would be in the middle of it. Was I at fault... NO. but with out a doubt I do share in the responsibility because I did not leave when I knew the the risk I was taking in staying.
In the same relation, a young lady that goes to a place of "Privacy" away from anyone and everyone else MUST accept some of the responsibility. They know the risks up front, but they are in NO way to blame for the act. They did not ask for it, they did not CAUSE it, but without a doubt they DID share in the responsibiliy.
In the case of violent sexual assault, for the most part, the offender is going to "get" someone really anyone. In this case, the person assaulted can not accept ANY resposibility.
One of the problems I think we have is the difference between responsibility and fault
Accepting responsibilty says, yes I may have been able to do something to avoid this, I did not cause it, I did not ask for this particular outcome, but I could have used better judgement and done something different.
To accept blame says, I caused it, It is my fault it happened.
Well, anyway, that is my 2 cents.
God bless
First, the question asks-- are there circumstances in which the person who has been asaulted my SHARE some of the responsibility. Now this does not mean they are asking for it, or that thay are to blame.
For example: I go to a friends house. He and other friends are there engauged in the use of illicit drugs. The smoke is heavy in the air and many are very intoxicated. A next door neighbor sees and hears the the party that is going on and call's the police. They arrive and bust everyone on the spot, no questions asked. I have not participated at all in the use of the drugs. IN NO WAY.
Now the question has to be asked... do I share in ANY responsibility? The answer is of course YES. I knew what they were doing was against the law and if there was a problem, I would be in the middle of it. Was I at fault... NO. but with out a doubt I do share in the responsibility because I did not leave when I knew the the risk I was taking in staying.
In the same relation, a young lady that goes to a place of "Privacy" away from anyone and everyone else MUST accept some of the responsibility. They know the risks up front, but they are in NO way to blame for the act. They did not ask for it, they did not CAUSE it, but without a doubt they DID share in the responsibiliy.
In the case of violent sexual assault, for the most part, the offender is going to "get" someone really anyone. In this case, the person assaulted can not accept ANY resposibility.
One of the problems I think we have is the difference between responsibility and fault
Accepting responsibilty says, yes I may have been able to do something to avoid this, I did not cause it, I did not ask for this particular outcome, but I could have used better judgement and done something different.
To accept blame says, I caused it, It is my fault it happened.
Well, anyway, that is my 2 cents.
God bless
Blessings; DJ
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mary
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Rape is definitely inexcusable. I agree with Pastor Don - it's more about responsibility than blame.
As a female, I think it's my responsibility to dress appropriately, keep my wits about me and not put myself in precarious situations.
When I drank, I remember that I became much more flirtatious and less inhibited (duh - alcohol definitely will loosen you up). I came close to getting myself in situations that could have been dangerous. So if you're under the influence of anything, you could be sending all kinds of "Come here" signals and not realizing that you could get more than you bargain for.
Teasing gets you in trouble. I have seen that firsthand one too many times - the guys my friends would tease would get more than ticked off when they were given the green light only to have the red light come on at a moment where the guy just didn't seem to think he should have to stop.
Should he stop if you say no? Absolutely. I believe that totally.
But to go around and provoke the situation isn't smart - and it's irresponsible.
Disclaimer: I know that every situation is different. And I've never walked in those shoes - I'd just like to believe that I would keep myself out of places where I could cause someone to think I'm inviting them over for something I'm not.
I'm no expert - but it's just my .02
As a female, I think it's my responsibility to dress appropriately, keep my wits about me and not put myself in precarious situations.
When I drank, I remember that I became much more flirtatious and less inhibited (duh - alcohol definitely will loosen you up). I came close to getting myself in situations that could have been dangerous. So if you're under the influence of anything, you could be sending all kinds of "Come here" signals and not realizing that you could get more than you bargain for.
Teasing gets you in trouble. I have seen that firsthand one too many times - the guys my friends would tease would get more than ticked off when they were given the green light only to have the red light come on at a moment where the guy just didn't seem to think he should have to stop.
Should he stop if you say no? Absolutely. I believe that totally.
But to go around and provoke the situation isn't smart - and it's irresponsible.
Disclaimer: I know that every situation is different. And I've never walked in those shoes - I'd just like to believe that I would keep myself out of places where I could cause someone to think I'm inviting them over for something I'm not.
I'm no expert - but it's just my .02
My 20 year old son said this the other night:
A girl who dresses like a ho (his term), is advertising that she's a ho, whether she's one or not. Mind you he said this at youth service. Some of the younger girls wanted to know what he meant by that, so he explained that if he saw a girl dressed in midriff top and short skirt, that she wasn't someone that he would even think about spending time with. They asked why? His answer was, because she is advertising that she's doesn't think enough of herself to cover herself up. She thinks she has to flaunt it, or she has to give it away to get the guy and that's not someone worthy of my time. (Boy that makes me proud!)
I said that to say this. You can't throw yourself out there, put yourself in situations and then be shocked to find yourself in danger. And yes it happens all the time...go to college campuses, ask around...ask your sons and daughters friends...I have, and I hear the stories.
No, no one asks to be raped, no one deserves to be raped. I didn't deserve to be raped. I didn't ask to be raped. But I was. And it wasn't my fault.
Educate our daughters and our sons. Teach young women what is and isn't acceptable. Teach young men that boundaries are there for a reason.
Rape is a ugly demon. Plain and simple.
A girl who dresses like a ho (his term), is advertising that she's a ho, whether she's one or not. Mind you he said this at youth service. Some of the younger girls wanted to know what he meant by that, so he explained that if he saw a girl dressed in midriff top and short skirt, that she wasn't someone that he would even think about spending time with. They asked why? His answer was, because she is advertising that she's doesn't think enough of herself to cover herself up. She thinks she has to flaunt it, or she has to give it away to get the guy and that's not someone worthy of my time. (Boy that makes me proud!)
I said that to say this. You can't throw yourself out there, put yourself in situations and then be shocked to find yourself in danger. And yes it happens all the time...go to college campuses, ask around...ask your sons and daughters friends...I have, and I hear the stories.
No, no one asks to be raped, no one deserves to be raped. I didn't deserve to be raped. I didn't ask to be raped. But I was. And it wasn't my fault.
Educate our daughters and our sons. Teach young women what is and isn't acceptable. Teach young men that boundaries are there for a reason.
Rape is a ugly demon. Plain and simple.
disagree
There is no right or wrong situation. Rape, in any shape, way or form, no matter WHAT the circumstances, is wrong. Plain and simple. Where you are doesn't matter..I had friends that were guys, who only place to hang out for all of us was in their rooms. Maybe I am from a different time but, honestly..we never even THOUGHT of sex. We listened to music, talked, laughed..never ONCE did sex come up by either of us.
As for dress--look at what some men are wearing. Some wear tight shirts, or shirts with holes in the chest area. Many wear jeans with holes in the back ends and tight in the front end. Bathing suits..let's not even go there....especially the BRIGHT WHITE ones. Does anyone rape them? no. Are they advertising for it? Well, if it was a woman, the answer would be yes. But, since they are a man, it is a different story.
Sorry, but this topic is something I am very passionate about. I have helped thousands of rape victims. Not one was dressing for it. Not one was went into, what they felt was a compromising position. They were RAPED--forcefully, violently and indisputably. The system needs to change where women are victims, and not topic for controversy.
Oh, and btw..I am not accusing ANYONE of anything. Just giving my point of view.
God Bless,
Kelly
As for dress--look at what some men are wearing. Some wear tight shirts, or shirts with holes in the chest area. Many wear jeans with holes in the back ends and tight in the front end. Bathing suits..let's not even go there....especially the BRIGHT WHITE ones. Does anyone rape them? no. Are they advertising for it? Well, if it was a woman, the answer would be yes. But, since they are a man, it is a different story.
Sorry, but this topic is something I am very passionate about. I have helped thousands of rape victims. Not one was dressing for it. Not one was went into, what they felt was a compromising position. They were RAPED--forcefully, violently and indisputably. The system needs to change where women are victims, and not topic for controversy.
Oh, and btw..I am not accusing ANYONE of anything. Just giving my point of view.
God Bless,
Kelly
In His Name,
K4J
K4J
Re: disagree
K4J wrote:There is no right or wrong situation. Rape, in any shape, way or form, no matter WHAT the circumstances, is wrong. Plain and simple. Where you are doesn't matter..I had friends that were guys, who only place to hang out for all of us was in their rooms. Maybe I am from a different time but, honestly..we never even THOUGHT of sex. We listened to music, talked, laughed..never ONCE did sex come up by either of us.
As for dress--look at what some men are wearing. Some wear tight shirts, or shirts with holes in the chest area. Many wear jeans with holes in the back ends and tight in the front end. Bathing suits..let's not even go there....especially the BRIGHT WHITE ones. Does anyone rape them? no. Are they advertising for it? Well, if it was a woman, the answer would be yes. But, since they are a man, it is a different story.
Sorry, but this topic is something I am very passionate about. I have helped thousands of rape victims. Not one was dressing for it. Not one was went into, what they felt was a compromising position. They were RAPED--forcefully, violently and indisputably. The system needs to change where women are victims, and not topic for controversy.
Oh, and btw..I am not accusing ANYONE of anything. Just giving my point of view.
God Bless,
Kelly
I agree with everything you are saying, btw.
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I am AMAZED that OF ALL PLACES, the prevailing attitude in this online 'Christian' community is what it is...
Who would've thought. It makes the idea of missionaries coming to the USA a bit more believable.
The things we do/say/believe in the name of Christ. I am continually amazed. I have met a tiny few professing Christians who I would accuse of knowing anything about him at all.
Neutiquam erro
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mary
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Re: disagree
amydawn wrote:I am AMAZED that OF ALL PLACES, the prevailing attitude in this online 'Christian' community is what it is...
Who would've thought. It makes the idea of missionaries coming to the USA a bit more believable.
The things we do/say/believe in the name of Christ. I am continually amazed. I have met a tiny few professing Christians who I would accuse of knowing anything about him at all.
What do you mean about the attitude here? I'm not sure I understand what you are referring to? And please, I am NOT by any means being sarcastic, ugly or smart - I'm just needing a bit of clarification.
Thanks!
Re: disagree
K4J wrote:There is no right or wrong situation. Rape, in any shape, way or form, no matter WHAT the circumstances, is wrong. Plain and simple. Where you are doesn't matter..I had friends that were guys, who only place to hang out for all of us was in their rooms. Maybe I am from a different time but, honestly..we never even THOUGHT of sex. We listened to music, talked, laughed..never ONCE did sex come up by either of us.
I have a 17 yr old daughter and a 20 yr old son, they have friends over all the time, they go to their rooms, and listen to music, play games, etc. Do I worry, no. Their friends stay the night, male and female, of course in the guest room, downstairs. Do I worry, No...why, because I know my kids, and I know their friends. I understand what you are saying.
K4J wrote:As for dress--look at what some men are wearing. Some wear tight shirts, or shirts with holes in the chest area. Many wear jeans with holes in the back ends and tight in the front end. Bathing suits..let's not even go there....especially the BRIGHT WHITE ones. Does anyone rape them? no. Are they advertising for it? Well, if it was a woman, the answer would be yes. But, since they are a man, it is a different story.
Men do get raped...as a rape counselor you should know that.
K4J wrote:Sorry, but this topic is something I am very passionate about. I have helped thousands of rape victims. Not one was dressing for it. Not one was went into, what they felt was a compromising position. They were RAPED--forcefully, violently and indisputably. The system needs to change where women are victims, and not topic for controversy.
I understand you being passionate about this...it's something I feel very strongly about myself. I think anyone who has been raped feels strong about it. And I agree, the system needs to change. I was silent for 10 years after my rape.
But answer this, in those thousands that you counseled, did any one of them partake of alcohol the night of her rape? I'm asking because you said that they felt they weren't in a compromising position...well, alcohol dulls your senses, it slows your reflexes, it makes you relaxed. That puts her in a compromising position.
Let me stress....NO ONE DESERVES TO BE RAPED! Just want that clear.
Last edited by Sherry on September 28th, 2005, 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: disagree
amydawn wrote:
I agree with everything you are saying, btw.
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I am AMAZED that OF ALL PLACES, the prevailing attitude in this online 'Christian' community is what it is...
Who would've thought. It makes the idea of missionaries coming to the USA a bit more believable.
The things we do/say/believe in the name of Christ. I am continually amazed. I have met a tiny few professing Christians who I would accuse of knowing anything about him at all.
I'm sorry Amy that we've disappointed you. I thought speaking from the heart is what we were about.
Amydawn wrote:
I'm amazed that you are so self-righteous. You continue to badmouth the people of this board that don't agree with you. You call into question their Christianity and their integrity every time something or someone irks you......which seems to be quite a bit.
I shake my head when I think that someone who professes to hate God and says she doesn't even know if she believes anymore even knows what a Christian should act like and sets out to correct the ones who are Christians.
You have been offered hand after hand from various people and they are accepted if you agree, but all hell breaks forth from you if they don't.
You continuously come out biting and scratching and YOU are going to call into question someone's ability to be Christ-like?
Good night, why am I banging my head against this rock?
As scooter said, Peace Out!
I am AMAZED that OF ALL PLACES, the prevailing attitude in this online 'Christian' community is what it is...
Who would've thought. It makes the idea of missionaries coming to the USA a bit more believable.
The things we do/say/believe in the name of Christ. I am continually amazed. I have met a tiny few professing Christians who I would accuse of knowing anything about him at all.
I'm amazed that you are so self-righteous. You continue to badmouth the people of this board that don't agree with you. You call into question their Christianity and their integrity every time something or someone irks you......which seems to be quite a bit.
I shake my head when I think that someone who professes to hate God and says she doesn't even know if she believes anymore even knows what a Christian should act like and sets out to correct the ones who are Christians.
You have been offered hand after hand from various people and they are accepted if you agree, but all hell breaks forth from you if they don't.
You continuously come out biting and scratching and YOU are going to call into question someone's ability to be Christ-like?
Good night, why am I banging my head against this rock?
As scooter said, Peace Out!
There never was a horse that couldn't be rode and there never was a cowboy that couldn't be throwed.
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Pastor Gary
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Do they know yet??
Pastor Don wrote:Well, anyway, that is my 2 cents.
Don, will you lose your church when the SO in Mississippi finds out about your sex-change operation???
(The title of the thread says WOMEN ONLY, PLEASE.)
"God is excited to show you mercy. He rises to give you His compassion." (Isaiah 30:18)
"For surely, O LORD, you bless the righteous; you surround them with your favor as with a shield." (Psalm 5:12)
"For surely, O LORD, you bless the righteous; you surround them with your favor as with a shield." (Psalm 5:12)
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