Todd Bentley Changes His Angel Story

[dolfan]

The problem with this whole way of thinking and doing is that it is rife with hearsay, and it is unnecessary to the real point.

Assume Bentley said the angel was a female form named Emma as in the earlier account and that Bentley never said anything attributed to him as being the contradictory account #2. What does that prove? That Bentley sees angels named Emma and ascribes to it prophetic significance, and that he has said everything else of record that is verified as being his own statements and acts. That's it. In other words, if Bentley did not say the angel was a 22 year old guy (and thereby not contradicting his Emma story), it doesn't change one whit of what Bentley verifiably has said and done.

Assume both accounts are true quotes of Bentley's. Then that makes him, charitably put, inconsistent. Or, more bluntly, a liar. Now, some may say, "Well those are two different things. Inconsistency is not a degree of deceit unless someone intends to deceive." I agree with that. To say that a lie is a type of inconsistency insists that all inconsistencies are intentional, and this is manifestly untrue. Likewise, it must be admitted that WOF and the "prophetic movement" as seen in the likes of Bentley is not a degree of pentecostalism, and that they (pentecostalism and WOF/"proph. movement") are different things entirely. Otherwise, you must ascribe to pentecostals who do not follow the WOF/"proph. movement" paths to be something other than genuine pentecostals or somehow less enlightened ones to an extent that their own walk is not truly "with God" in the most personal and practical sense of the word "with". And, that is precisely the leverage these people use to shame, coerce, convince or cajole arms-distance pentecostals toward their own deal.

Simply put, people should just say "enough". "I don't have to follow that. It doesn't effect what kind of believer I am. And, if it is a false gospel, I expect to call it that to help my immature fellow believers, and my maturer my fellow believers should get my back on it. And, I'm going to aim my warnings to those I know are in danger of being harmed by the error." Enough finessing over whether Bentley is spreading error, and enough over worrying about if this guy represents pentecostalism. The answer to both approaches is a resounding "Fahget about it." He is wrong and he isn't pentecostal I don't care if he orders his breakfast at McDonald's in tongues and says more in them with 100 words than Paul the Apostle said in his day.

And, no, I don't mean you guys shouldn't debate, discuss, etc. My "enough" is a personal one. This guy is beyond debate to the point that it is like arguing how wet is water. Answer: Wet enough. If someone wants to chase after Bentley and then get all giddy about him, telling them the truth is not going to stop them. Helping them see the truth might, maybe, perhaps. I'd like to see follow ups with all those miraculously touched, healed and changed people in six months. That might help some, but even that is doubtful. All you can do is point out and explain the plain truth, and if people choose to use sophistry and massage their own minds to accommodate the message of these guys, that's not your problem to have to solve. Love will go a long way with someone in error who is genuinely trying to follow the Lord and has a better chance of rescuing them from error than mere dogma (and I like dogma, we need it).

[RamboPreacher]

I agree, water is pretty wet, and kinda pregnant is still pregnant.

[Jennifer Smith]

The problem with this whole way of thinking and doing is that it is rife with hearsay, and it is unnecessary to the real point.

Assume Bentley said the angel was a female form named Emma as in the earlier account and that Bentley never said anything attributed to him as being the contradictory account #2. What does that prove? That Bentley sees angels named Emma and ascribes to it prophetic significance, and that he has said everything else of record that is verified as being his own statements and acts. That's it. In other words, if Bentley did not say the angel was a 22 year old guy (and thereby not contradicting his Emma story), it doesn't change one whit of what Bentley verifiably has said and done.

Assume both accounts are true quotes of Bentley's. Then that makes him, charitably put, inconsistent. Or, more bluntly, a liar. Now, some may say, "Well those are two different things. Inconsistency is not a degree of deceit unless someone intends to deceive."

dolfan, you should be a lawyer.... (I'm sure you've heard that joke before, but I still like it!)

[Jennifer Smith]

Likewise, it must be admitted that WOF and the "prophetic movement" as seen in the likes of Bentley is not a degree of pentecostalism, and that they (pentecostalism and WOF/"proph. movement") are different things entirely. Otherwise, you must ascribe to pentecostals who do not follow the WOF/"proph. movement" paths to be something other than genuine pentecostals or somehow less enlightened ones to an extent that their own walk is not truly "with God" in the most personal and practical sense of the word "with". And, that is precisely the leverage these people use to shame, coerce, convince or cajole arms-distance pentecostals toward their own deal.

This was one point I didn't quite agree with though I respect where you're coming from. I feel it is unnecessary to make labels or try to separate out by doctrine those who differ, although it is what some have been angling for for a long time. Did not Jesus tell us the parable of the tares and the wheat? God will do the separating. If pentecostals can not "get along" or agree to disagree and love one another despite differences, you are right, there is a problem. How can we look down on one another or call one another unenlightened? If I have made you or others feel that way in the past, I do apologize.

I feel I have to state again that I make no claims to vouch for Bentley.
I believe there is an agenda here that has been here for a long time, and it is to divide, and it comes from a biased viewpoint.

[DaJudge]

The problem with this whole way of thinking and doing is that it is rife with hearsay, and it is unnecessary to the real point.

Assume Bentley said the angel was a female form named Emma as in the earlier account and that Bentley never said anything attributed to him as being the contradictory account #2. What does that prove? That Bentley sees angels named Emma and ascribes to it prophetic significance, and that he has said everything else of record that is verified as being his own statements and acts. That's it. In other words, if Bentley did not say the angel was a 22 year old guy (and thereby not contradicting his Emma story), it doesn't change one whit of what Bentley verifiably has said and done.

Assume both accounts are true quotes of Bentley's. Then that makes him, charitably put, inconsistent. Or, more bluntly, a liar. Now, some may say, "Well those are two different things. Inconsistency is not a degree of deceit unless someone intends to deceive." I agree with that. To say that a lie is a type of inconsistency insists that all inconsistencies are intentional, and this is manifestly untrue. Likewise, it must be admitted that WOF and the "prophetic movement" as seen in the likes of Bentley is not a degree of pentecostalism, and that they (pentecostalism and WOF/"proph. movement") are different things entirely. Otherwise, you must ascribe to pentecostals who do not follow the WOF/"proph. movement" paths to be something other than genuine pentecostals or somehow less enlightened ones to an extent that their own walk is not truly "with God" in the most personal and practical sense of the word "with". And, that is precisely the leverage these people use to shame, coerce, convince or cajole arms-distance pentecostals toward their own deal.

Simply put, people should just say "enough". "I don't have to follow that. It doesn't effect what kind of believer I am. And, if it is a false gospel, I expect to call it that to help my immature fellow believers, and my maturer my fellow believers should get my back on it. And, I'm going to aim my warnings to those I know are in danger of being harmed by the error." Enough finessing over whether Bentley is spreading error, and enough over worrying about if this guy represents pentecostalism. The answer to both approaches is a resounding "Fahget about it." He is wrong and he isn't pentecostal I don't care if he orders his breakfast at McDonald's in tongues and says more in them with 100 words than Paul the Apostle said in his day.

And, no, I don't mean you guys shouldn't debate, discuss, etc. My "enough" is a personal one. This guy is beyond debate to the point that it is like arguing how wet is water. Answer: Wet enough. If someone wants to chase after Bentley and then get all giddy about him, telling them the truth is not going to stop them. Helping them see the truth might, maybe, perhaps. I'd like to see follow ups with all those miraculously touched, healed and changed people in six months. That might help some, but even that is doubtful. All you can do is point out and explain the plain truth, and if people choose to use sophistry and massage their own minds to accommodate the message of these guys, that's not your problem to have to solve. Love will go a long way with someone in error who is genuinely trying to follow the Lord and has a better chance of rescuing them from error than mere dogma (and I like dogma, we need it).

Dolfan, this is your best post, and possibly THE best post, on Jude 2, evah.

Good job my friend.

[pastorables]

I believe there is an agenda here that has been here for a long time, and it is to divide, and it comes from a biased viewpoint.

Is this from the same producer who brought us, "A View From Brownsville"?

[Jennifer Smith]

I believe there is an agenda here that has been here for a long time, and it is to divide, and it comes from a biased viewpoint.

Is this from the same producer who brought us, "A View From Brownsville"?

I have to beg forgiveness here if I judged or hurt anyone in my own bias in the past... I'm not sure what "A View From Brownsville" means, but I do think I was so excited about and defensive of my own experience at Brownsville that I may have made some others feel badly, and I am sorry. I think personality and past experience have a lot to do with how we view these things... God likely doesn't judge us in the same way we seem to judge one another based on these differences...at least that is my thought...

[Gerald Creasy]

..........I was so excited about and defensive of my own experience at Brownsville that I may have made some others feel badly, and I am sorry. I think personality and past experience have a lot to do with how we view these things... God likely doesn't judge us in the same way we seem to judge one another based on these differences...at least that is my thought...

This is exactly why Pentecostalism is descending into madness: We have given up Bible and sanity in favor of "PERSONAL EXPERIECE".

Ministers can now lie through their teeth, physically assualt you, and make extra Biblical claims and IT'S ALL Good cause "I got a buzz".

[PastorDaniel]

I found the excerpt from his book on a blog. You'll have to get ahold of a copy of the book to see if it is actually changed.

I will do that. I have witnessed several incidences of damage, whether innocent or strategic, from the sharing of false reports. It's obvious that Bentley is WAY out in left field with many of his antics, but we should still have the integrity to report only truth about anyone.

On the 23rd June meeting at Lakeland, Todd claimed when he was 18 he said ‘God I want to be part of a global movement.’ When he was preaching to 20 people, he said ‘God, the biggest stadiums in the world are not going to be able to hold the masses.’ Todd said he wanted to preach to stadiums filled, but claims church people at the time said of him: ‘That tattooed preacher Todd Bentley, you’ll never go anywhere looking like that!’ My leadership team said: ‘Todd, I don’t know, you go all those tattoos on your body, I don’t know, they’re gonna hurt your ministry.’ ‘How many know God wants to use you as you are?’ then said Todd. The crowd then whistled, cheered and clapped.

Yet his tattos did not come until many years later.

Again, where is the source link? If you are getting this information from one of those "wake up church" sites, I have found few of those that could be deemed credible by any church?!

Show me the credible ministry sites debunking Bentley and it will demand more attention.

Blessings,
pa

PA, go to youtube and do a search on Todd Bentley....it's very easy to find hundreds of short films on him....some with Tattoos....some without....I don't need a wake up church site...I've seen it with my own eyes...It's possible that he had some under his clothes previously...but the ones on his hands and neck are definitly not there in older films!

I've also heard him say blah, blah, blah....spend some time and watch some of his footage when he was in Toronto...it's ridiculous!

Bam, Bam don't bother me...it's the blah, blah, blah and the claim that it's the annointing that bothers me.

Take some time to search out some of the Toronto videos too....I saw one guy praying for people and he'd lay his hand on their head and shout "ding dong"

Just do your own personal homework....and if it still don't bother you....

[pastorables]

Just do your own personal homework....and if it still don't bother you....

Again, I don't support Bentley. I don't know him, but I can say that his ministry style is not for me. By the same, I'm not ready to judge his salvation either.

We have made this more about Bentley and less about Lakeland. Actually, it's the Revival itself that I look to understand. When I see ministers like C. Peter Wagner, a leader I've heard personally and have respected, endorse the Revival at Lakeland in a supportive manner - well - it causes you to look for scriptural balance concerning the entire event.

Take Brownsville for instance, I know for a fact that God blessed and delivered during that Revival. However, there are those who will never accept anything good from that event.

pa

[pastorables]

I have to beg forgiveness here if I judged or hurt anyone in my own bias in the past... I'm not sure what "A View From Brownsville" means, but I do think I was so excited about and defensive of my own experience at Brownsville that I may have made some others feel badly, and I am sorry.

Jennifer,

You stated that some had an agenda. I was just poking fun at all the debates we had on here concerning the Brownsville Revival. "A View From Brownsville" was a play on words to portray a talk show. No offense or harm intended.

Blessings,
pa

[PastorDaniel]

Just do your own personal homework....and if it still don't bother you....

Again, I don't support Bentley. I don't know him, but I can say that his ministry style is not for me. By the same, I'm not ready to judge his salvation either.

We have made this more about Bentley and less about Lakeland. Actually, it's the Revival itself that I look to understand. When I see ministers like C. Peter Wagner, a leader I've heard personally and have respected, endorse the Revival at Lakeland in a supportive manner - well - it causes you to look for scriptural balance concerning the entire event.

Take Brownsville for instance, I know for a fact that God blessed and delivered during that Revival. However, there are those who will never accept anything good from that event.

pa

Well...I do agree that God honor's our faith....I believe that our healings come from our faith that God is using a particular individual. Not some magic in the preacher's hand.

I just get real careful and cautious when the "revival" is one of this nature with someone like Bentley. There's just too many signs and unscriptural mess for me.

I don't support Wagner or his teachings either....he's involved with that group of self declared Apostles who have a roundtable that is by invitation only. I've done some reading about them in the past and don't agree with alot of what they say.

[one love]

I am going to say this as kindly as possible.

I do not agree with Bentley methods.


I equally dont agree with the abuse I feel Jennifer , Pastorables and Paul seem to be recieving. Matter of fact I dislike it a little more because it is not biblical to do so. You can not condemn a action while doing another.

I know it is important to sound the alarm but are they going to get this forever. I think they get the point and understand. Where is the love?

People are condemning them and bentley but so many other things are widely accepted, matter of fact I have been condemned for being to strict.


I dont care if the Bentley topic contiunes but must the mudslinging also?

[PastorDaniel]

I am going to say this as kindly as possible.

I do not agree with Bentley methods.


I equally dont agree with the abuse I feel Jennifer , Pastorables and Paul seem to be recieving. Matter of fact I dislike it a little more because it is not biblical to do so. You can not condemn a action while doing another.

I know it is important to sound the alarm but are they going to get this forever. I think they get the point and understand. Where is the love?

People are condemning them and bentley but so many other things are widely accepted, matter of fact I have been condemned for being to strict.


I dont care if the Bentley topic contiunes but must the mudslinging also?

Who's mudslinging....did I miss something....if you think I'm slinging mud then you are misreading my posts.....the only person I've pointed at was Bentley. Maybe I'm on the tail end of something here.

[one love]

I am going to say this as kindly as possible.

I do not agree with Bentley methods.


I equally dont agree with the abuse I feel Jennifer , Pastorables and Paul seem to be recieving. Matter of fact I dislike it a little more because it is not biblical to do so. You can not condemn a action while doing another.

I know it is important to sound the alarm but are they going to get this forever. I think they get the point and understand. Where is the love?

People are condemning them and bentley but so many other things are widely accepted, matter of fact I have been condemned for being to strict.


I dont care if the Bentley topic contiunes but must the mudslinging also?

Who's mudslinging....did I miss something....if you think I'm slinging mud then you are misreading my posts.....the only person I've pointed at was Bentley. Maybe I'm on the tail end of something here.

No Brother youn have not, if you dont know you might have just missed a few hundred post