Happy Robert E. Lee Day!!!!

[Tim Elston]

You might also learn that many of the Northerns had their own slaves. That the real reason was of States Rights.

While I am sympathetic to the right of states to secede and to the argument against federalism, my impression is that the southern states used these arguments as excuses to defend the money interests in slavery. I know that some northerners were pro-slavery and that northerners were slow to be against slavery for the right reasons. I find it hard to consider any leader great, whether a northerner like Millard Fillmore or a southerner like Franklin Pierce, who brought his power to bear on the preservation of slavery against its critics.

Gen Lee's birthday was celebrated many years before MLK Jr. If you will read about him (not of the last days rethink history), I think you will find just what a great man he really was.

I'll pick the best biography I can find, which, if it is good, will be less biased toward the south or the north and more biased toward the principles of traditional historiography. I'm sure that Lee was great in some respects, but if he was ideologically aligned with the slave power, he was to my mind not a truly great leader. But, yes, I do need to read a good biography of him know.

[Dr. Ron]

Tim....you have a hard time seeing the greatness in a man who fought for slavery rights....which you know well was not the main issue. States Rights was the issue....

Can you see greatness in the clown being inaugurated ad nausium who is ready to be an accomplis to murdering millions of children????/

I hope not.....

As for slavery, it was not now nor ever will be right. I concede that any man who owned slaves was participating in barbarism.

[Poimen]

Tim, et al

FYI -- Lee was not for slavery. He fought for Virginia. He fought for Liberty. He fought for the principles of our Republic. They were dealt the fatal wound when Lee was finally forced to surrender.

[Tim Elston]

Tim....you have a hard time seeing the greatness in a man who fought for slavery rights....which you know well was not the main issue. States Rights was the issue....

People who tell me what I know don't have a good record of being correct when what they mean is that I believe what they believe after I have already stated that I don't believe it. They are usually assuming that what they think they know they can tell other people that they know the same thing.

In this case, my perception is that states rights was used as an excuse to defend the slave power and that since the economic interests of the south depended on the institution of slavery all legal arguments, including states rights, were used to defend it.

Can you see greatness in the clown being inaugurated ad nausium who is ready to be an accomplis to murdering millions of children????

He is not a clown, but, no, I do not consider him to be a great man for the very reason that you mention. No man is great who votes against a ban on partial birth abortion. To quibble over legal gnats on that issue is petty and a disqualifier for greatness, in my view.

[Dr. Ron]

You are a great debater.....but not that great.

I know you know.....you just play the devil's advocate,.

Yes, Obama is a clown. He is a wind up toy that spouts whatever dribble is necessary to appease.

As for abortion being trivialized the way you did, leads me to think you are devoid of concience.

[oletimer]

Tim read the right books and let them teach you about what really happen. Gen Lee was a man of high morals, and very loyal to the his state. From what I have learned he was more less force to decide between the north and the south.

In this case, my perception is that states rights was used as an excuse to defend the slave power and that since the economic interests of the south depended on the institution of slavery all legal arguments, including states rights, were used to defend it.

It was the north that didn't want lose the south for econemic reason and theyused slavery against the south. Kind of like complaining about farmers with your mouth full of food.

Not asking you to be a Lee supporter, but a least understand him and the load he was under. Yes he was a great man.

[Tim Elston]

I know you know.....you just play the devil's advocate,.

No, that states rights thing might be the southern line, but I don't believe it. I believe it the way I stated it.

As for abortion being trivialized the way you did, leads me to think you are devoid of concience.

That's fine with me if you think that, but abortion is the primary reason why I cannot vote Democrat, just like torture and strategic war are why I had to condemn the Bush administration. Abortion is not the only evil in the world, but it is an evil that I can never support.

You said on Saturday that you were being sarcastic about murdering Muslims. I still don't see the sarcasm you claim in that post, but I am willing to chock it up to a moment of stupidity rather than you being devoid of conscience.

[Tim Elston]

From what I have learned he was more less force to decide between the north and the south.

If that's the case, I might come away with some sympathy for him.

It was the north that didn't want lose the south for econemic reason and theyused slavery against the south.

I agree. The north was acting in its own economic interests. It was hypocritical inasmuch as it tolerated slavery until its own interests were threatened. That does not excuse the south, but what you say about the north is true. The real heros were the people in both the north and the south who risked their lives and livelihoods to free slaves.

[Dr. Ron]

Tim, you seemed to trivialized abortion in your post about Obama. Maybe I misunderstood you.

As for the sarcasm in my post, you have to be kidding that you think I would sumarily shoot people. ...come on Tim.....give me a little credit...

I was not being sarcastic about Islam being an evil religion.

[oletimer]

Tim wrote:
The real heros were the people in both the north and the south who risked their lives and livelihoods to free slaves.

Most fought because they didn't have any chose. To most it was a question of rather fight on the northern or the southern side.

[Tim Elston]

Most fought because they didn't have any chose. To most it was a question of rather fight on the northern or the southern side.

Yes, but I was referring to people who helped slaves on the Underground Railroad and in other ways, people who did what they did because they saw the evil for what it was. There were people in the north and south who did that.

Did you ever read Harriet Beecher Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin? I've read it twice and cried almost all the way through both readings. It's by far the most emotive book I've ever read.

[Tim Elston]

Tim, you seemed to trivialized abortion in your post about Obama. Maybe I misunderstood you.

Sorry for the confusion. I was taking a cheap shot at Gerald, for what seemed to me to be a cheap-shot question he asked me in the MLK thread.

As for the sarcasm in my post, you have to be kidding that you think I would sumarily shoot people. ...come on Tim.....give me a little credit...

No, your post seemed sincere all the way through. There's nothing in it that I saw that suggests otherwise. I went back to read it, and, no, it doesn't look like sarcasm. It looks sincere. But I will accept that you didn't mean it seriously, even if it looks like you did, because I'd rather you didn't and it's better that it ends up this way.

[Dr. Ron]

Tim, I am afraid that you are becoming some what dim witted....if you can't see the sarcasm in my post...

While I am very much a military hawk, I don't agree with any one being senselessly killed. I know waaaaayyyyy too much history of war to believe that it has happened far too often in the name of freedom. My father in law who was on Iwo Jima and survived told me of the many atrocities on both sides. He couldn't abide it. While he killed many of the enemy in close quarter combat, he didn't do it as a murderous act.

I have not served in combat, but I have served close enough to it to know that war is hell. I do believe in the imprisonment of pows. I believe in the proper treatment of those pows....something which the US has never had given to them by any other country.....ever. No American POW has ever been treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention. We on the other hand have treated our prisoners (with some noteable exceptions) with some degree of compassion...

I would not be in favor of sumarily executing any POW unless he was found guilty by court's martial of spying and/or acts of treason. I don't believe that POWs have civil rights. They are to be held by and tried by military courts. They have been caught in a military operation against our military.

Having said all that, I hope you will get your eyes opened to the fact that to blame Bush for the Iraqi war alone, is to reveal your own biggotry. He acted with the full agreement of Congress. His approval rating for the war "going in" was 93%. You were in the military long enough to understand the methods of gaining information. He acted on what he was told.

If you want to blame someone, blame the pervert who diluted the CIA and the FBI and the military to the point that they couldn't do their job properly.

Now, I feel better.

[JStephenConn]

Robert E. Lee was strongly opposed to slavery and considered it a sin. Several years before the War Between the States he wrote: "There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil."

When Lee inherited slaves through the death of his wife's father, he set them free - Unlike Ulysses S. Grant who owned slaves and refused to give them up even after the Emancipation Proclamation.

Not only was Robert E. Lee a great military leader, he was an outstanding Christian leader as well. Booker T. Washington, America’s great African-American Educator, wrote in 1910: "The first white people in America, certainly the first in the South to exhibit their interest in the reaching of the Negro and saving his soul through the medium of the Sunday-school were Robert E. Lee and 'Stonewall Jackson.'"

Even during and immediately following the failed War for Southern Independence, Robert E. Lee was highly respected as a Christian gentleman by church leaders, the press and political leaders on both sides of the conflict. I've posted a couple of pieces about Robert E. Lee on one of my blogs over the past few days. Click them up and see what great men like Winston Churchill and Dwight D. Eisenhower had to say about him.

www.confederatedigest.blogspot.com

[scooter]

Robert E. Lee was strongly opposed to slavery and considered it a sin. Several years before the War Between the States he wrote: "There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil."

When Lee inherited slaves through the death of his wife's father, he set them free - Unlike Ulysses S. Grant who owned slaves and refused to give them up even after the Emancipation Proclamation.

Not only was Robert E. Lee a great military leader, he was an outstanding Christian leader as well. Booker T. Washington, America’s great African-American Educator, wrote in 1910: "The first white people in America, certainly the first in the South to exhibit their interest in the reaching of the Negro and saving his soul through the medium of the Sunday-school were Robert E. Lee and 'Stonewall Jackson.'"

Even during and immediately following the failed War for Southern Independence, Robert E. Lee was highly respected as a Christian gentleman by church leaders, the press and political leaders on both sides of the conflict. I've posted a couple of pieces about Robert E. Lee on one of my blogs over the past few days. Click them up and see what great men like Winston Churchill and Dwight D. Eisenhower had to say about him.

www.confederatedigest.blogspot.com

Response: Great post....remember when hype doesn't work just use facts!