I have seen a church ALIVE

[scooter]

From your lips to God's ears. (But my phone is not ringing off the hook with invitations. How about you, Scooter?)

Response: I don't know I'm pretty busy!

Really being an SO is opportunity to promote such realism.

I know in the many positions that I have it gives me more than ample opportunity to share what we have and encourage others. As a pastor on the local level, as a DO on a district level, as Men's Ministries Director on a state level, as a member of the ministerial review board to the younger new ministers, as an international chaplain on still another.

The calls to fill those positions have opened many doors to be an encourager.

[Pastor Gary]

From your lips to God's ears. (But my phone is not ringing off the hook with invitations. How about you, Scooter?)

Response: I don't know I'm pretty busy!

Really being an SO is opportunity to promote such realism.

I know in the many positions that I have it gives me more than ample opportunity to share what we have and encourage others. As a pastor on the local level, as a DO on a district level, as Men's Ministries Director on a state level, as a member of the ministerial review board to the younger new ministers, as an international chaplain on still another.

The calls to fill those positions have opened many doors to be an encourager.

Yes, you and I (and others) are doing what we can at our level of leadership (local/state/regional) but what Macuser referenced was:

"These effective Churches need to be highlighted, studied and promoted as leaders in our movement. Not so that we can beat our chests.. but so we can apply whatever principles will work for us at our local locations.

Then ministry teams armed with this knowledge.. need to be sent forth from the top down in a revival restructuring fashion for those that will listen."

[scooter]

"These effective Churches need to be highlighted, studied and promoted as leaders in our movement. Not so that we can beat our chests.. but so we can apply whatever principles will work for us at our local locations.

Then ministry teams armed with this knowledge.. need to be sent forth from the top down in a revival restructuring fashion for those that will listen."

Response: Yeah I hear you but you're at the top!

Assign a few faithful to do just what Macuser said!

[Jennifer Smith]

Gerald, for goodness sake, you don't have to go back to a library! If it has made such a difference in such a short time in your life being part of a vibrant church, why don't you seek out one closer to home? Or... move to Florida.

But, I can't really recommend the latter, unless you like big storms!




Scooter and Shellie, proud of you! Great job on allowing God to work in your church.

[Gerald Creasy]

Gerald, for goodness sake, you don't have to go back to a library! If it has made such a difference in such a short time in your life being part of a vibrant church, why don't you seek out one closer to home? Or... move to Florida.

But, I can't really recommend the latter, unless you like big storms!




Scooter and Shellie, proud of you! Great job on allowing God to work in your church.

No offense intended Sister...but I seriously think what you would describe as vibrant and what I would describe as vibrant would be two different things.


In disscusion the tenor of this church I -quite snarkily- summed it up in ONE WORD:

FUNCTIONING



I think a lot has to do with The Pastor Being REAL to the people. TRANSPARENT.

I can't tell you how many times I have tried to connect with a minister and always gotten that MINISTER FALSE FACE.....as if their response to you comes from an Established Code......as if in their mind they say: Person of Personality 21a asks Question of Type 3.5/a response should be......
You never reach the person inside, the one behind the Pastor Bluster facade.

[scooter]

I think a lot has to do with The Pastor Being REAL to the people. TRANSPARENT.
.

Response: That holds a lot of meaning, no offense intended, coming from you. Even with the fact that we are brothers you still didn't understand my work here except in terms of what you thought about me and our work here from a distance.

When I hear the terms outreach program or even revival to a certain degree it's a bit of a turn off. I don't know that it actually refects the results in personal Christian growth that is so tangible.

Maybe I have learned something in the last 20 years.

[Pastor Bill]

Gerald, for goodness sake, you don't have to go back to a library! If it has made such a difference in such a short time in your life being part of a vibrant church, why don't you seek out one closer to home? Or... move to Florida.

But, I can't really recommend the latter, unless you like big storms!




Scooter and Shellie, proud of you! Great job on allowing God to work in your church.

No offense intended Sister...but I seriously think what you would describe as vibrant and what I would describe as vibrant would be two different things.


In disscusion the tenor of this church I -quite snarkily- summed it up in ONE WORD:

FUNCTIONING



I think a lot has to do with The Pastor Being REAL to the people. TRANSPARENT.

I can't tell you how many times I have tried to connect with a minister and always gotten that MINISTER FALSE FACE.....as if their response to you comes from an Established Code......as if in their mind they say: Person of Personality 21a asks Question of Type 3.5/a response should be......
You never reach the person inside, the one behind the Pastor Bluster facade.

Wish you could find that close to you, (or that you could move a couple hours west!) I'm not sure which church you go to, but probably know your pastor, and I can understand what you're saying. some people just don't relate well or feel they have to put up a show rather than letting people see their flaws as well.

But I will say it's more than just the pastor (no offense meant to Scooter, because it DOES take the pastor) but I've seen that same facade put up from members toward the pastor (don't want him to think I'm not perfect!) and it can be difficult too, it has to come throughout the church to really be effective. We're working on that now, and doing a great study on Wednesday nights on Relational Foundations, and being real with one another and the need for real relationships in order to truly minister.

[Gerald Creasy]

Wish you could find that close to you, (or that you could move a couple hours west!) I'm not sure which church you go to, but probably know your pastor, and I can understand what you're saying. some people just don't relate well or feel they have to put up a show rather than letting people see their flaws as well.

But I will say it's more than just the pastor (no offense meant to Scooter, because it DOES take the pastor) but I've seen that same facade put up from members toward the pastor (don't want him to think I'm not perfect!) and it can be difficult too, it has to come throughout the church to really be effective. We're working on that now, and doing a great study on Wednesday nights on Relational Foundations, and being real with one another and the need for real relationships in order to truly minister.

I do NOT want my comments to be taken as a slight to my Pastor.

In all my life I have seen only a handful display the Christianity I have seen from him.....I believe there is somthing more affecting my local...just what I am not sure.

[MacUser]

These effective Churches need to be highlighted, studied and promoted as leaders in our movement. Not so that we can beat our chests.. but so we can apply whatever principles will work for us at our local locations.

Then ministry teams armed with this knowledge.. need to be sent forth from the top down in a revival restructuring fashion for those that will listen.

From your lips to God's ears. (But my phone is not ringing off the hook with invitations. How about you, Scooter?)

Sure.. but my goal again wasn't to create an outline of what to do based on studying our most effective.. but an example of HOW to do it.

Sometimes people can get boxed in, never move, never experience effectiveness and not know what they are missing. Gerald's example of personal discovery is a microcosm.

My ideal of TOP down HQ Leadership that results from group hands on study of these thriving locations with updated contact names and numbers given... so that these individuals could be personally contacted from desirous ministry groups (or onsite teams) wanted also to be effective. Not to "steal" away that person.. but to ask how they could reproduce it faced with those unique issues. You will be surprised how much our effective ministers can share. The common knowledge they have can be epiphanies to the less experienced.

I also see a HQ level team formed that could come down for a week and demonstrate effectiveness. Not just preach it from the pulpit and leave... but have meetings on how to be effective in the local communities, form door to door campaigns, food ministries, hospital ministries... whatever is proven to work for a city of that size and demographics. If it's not effective.. activate your effective pastor team and get some ideas.

A complete leadership restructuring placed on effectiveness imho is the only thing that is going to keep us relevant and/or even alive in the coming years. If we continue to ignore and hide the most effective.. out of tradition, social order, whatever.. we are dooming our children.


I would be glad to help brainstorm or help setup such.

[Pastor Bill]

I do NOT want my comments to be taken as a slight to my Pastor.

In all my life I have seen only a handful display the Christianity I have seen from him.....I believe there is somthing more affecting my local...just what I am not sure.

I know that brother, I know you, and probably him both (not sure which church you actually attend) and knowing the pastors in that area, I wasn't assuming that. Only that I understand what you mean, and as I said, it's not only pastors that have this problem, in fact, I was just talking to a close friend and upcoming leader in my church about that very issue, it's frustrating when you can see people just not being real with you, and it limits how openly you can minister to them.

[Pastor Bill]

Interesting MacUser, Our SO has been trying to work with pastors to do just that, we've been meeting once a month for all pastors who are interested and doing some studies on leadership, and he's going to start coming to interested churches to work with local leadership to start similar development within the local churches.

It's been a blessing so far, with some very interesting group discussions and sharing of ideas.

[RaceRunner]

Some of you have said two words in your posts that jump out.

"Transparent" and "Real"

Since these are more "youthful" words... I am sincerely interested in knowing your (whoever's) definitions of them. (not to argue or debate.)

In my mind, these seem to be terms with broad meanings...so my question is: If a member desires a minister/leader/congregation to be more "transparent or real"...what does that mean? Are you able to give specific examples?

[Pastor Bill]

Honest, open, putting up no fronts, but relating to one another as-is, flaws, faults, struggles, temptations, sins and all.

Instead of being about putting on a show, showing only good example, hiding faults and struggles, and giving the appearance of perfection.

Life is about relationships, Christ was all about relating to people and ministering to them where they were through love, and you can't love someone if you can't relate to them, or don't honestly know them. THIS is why the church is seen as all hypocrits, because too many aren't being really themselves, but putting up a front.

[RamboPreacher]

approachable, not aloof.

[scooter]

approachable, not aloof.

Response: Huggable!