Why Sola Fide Won't Save Your Butt!!!

[Mike Vande]

Russ, where would we be without you to correct 400-500 years of theological misinterpretation?

I think the word I'm looking for here is "arrogance."

[Tracy]

Actually, Mike, it is more like 1,500 years.

Russell is a student of N. T. Wright.

Just to orient Jude 2 readers, I'll post the same thing that I did on another board which Russell posts on.

Here is is a quote from N. T. Wright:

"The discussion of justification in much of the history of the church, certainly since Augustine, got off on the wrong foot--at least in terms of understanding Paul--and they have stayed there ever since." (N. T. Wright in 'What Saint Paul Really Said' p. 115) italics mine.

In effect, Wright thinks that on the issue of justification, the church has been largely on the wrong foot for 1,500 years and now he himself is getting it straight. That makes bells and whistles go off all over the place in my book. Wright's teachings should be weighed very carefully.

A good resouce to read to see a refutation of Wright is "The Future of Justification" by John Piper. Piper wrote the book, sent it to Wright, Wright commented, then Piper wrote the rest of the book. My above quote came from that book. I recommend it highly to those interested, particularly since it is recognized to be a fair treatment of Wright's theology.

[Russell Roberts]

Thanks for posting that quote Tracy. I love reading Wright even if it is on a message board!

You, a student of Piper, should take this opportunity to expound Piper's views in the same way I have explained Wright's. We could have a nice debate...hash out the meaning of scripture. That's what I'm talking about! Christian brothers and sisters vigorously examining these things to see if they are so!!!

That way, people who are reading this thread can follow each argument to see which one makes the most sense.

Unless, of course, you're scared...

[valley]

Here is what Martin Luther wrote:

The first and chief article is this: Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, died for our sins and was raised again for our justification (Romans 3:24-25). He alone is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29), and God has laid on Him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:6). All have sinned and are justified freely, without their own works and merits, by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, in His blood (Romans 3:23-25). This is necessary to believe. This cannot be otherwise acquired or grasped by any work, law or merit. Therefore, it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us ... Nothing of this article can be yielded or surrendered, even though heaven and earth and everything else falls (Mark 13:31)

Thus, to Luther we are saved/justified by sola gratia, not sola fide. Sola fide deals with how grace is applied to one's life. The argument revolves around rather or not a person can work to attain grace. Luther maintained that grace was a free gift of God and to attain it all one had to do was believe in Christ alone. Thus, a complete understanding of his teachings on justification must involve three of the five solas. We are saved by sola gratia, through sola fide in solus Christos. Soli Deo gloria!

Rather Luther was correct in his beliefs or not is certainly open to debate, but if debate we must we should at least address them as they are not as we wisht them to be. Therefore, as an act of clarification, are you saying that grace is applied by works and not faith?

[Shellie]

Vande...good to see you back.

[Russell Roberts]

Valley,

Grace is not something that is 'applied' as I see it. It is something God made available to all of humanity through the redemptive work of Jesus. Luther equated justification with salvation which is a misunderstanding of how Paul used the word 'justification'. In fact, you used it in the same way Martin Luther used it, equating it with salvation. It is not equated to salvation. Having said that, here is part of the quote you presented.

Therefore, it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us

See that phrase 'faith alone justifies us'? He was citing 'sola fide' as the cause of ones 'justification' or as he saw it, 'salvation'.

Does that answer your question?

[valley]

Valley,

Grace is not something that is 'applied' as I see it. It is something God made available to all of humanity through the redemptive work of Jesus. Luther equated justification with salvation which is a misunderstanding of how Paul used the word 'justification'. In fact, you used it in the same way Martin Luther used it, equating it with salvation. It is not equated to salvation. Having said that, here is part of the quote you presented.

Therefore, it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us

See that phrase 'faith alone justifies us'? He was citing 'sola fide' as the cause of ones 'justification' or as he saw it, 'salvation'.

Does that answer your question?

Yes. Thanks.

BTW: I do not necessarily agree with Luther.

[Russell Roberts]

Thanks Valley,

Bless you brother.

[Mike Vande]

Vande...good to see you back.

I've been around, Shel, just not seeing anything much I felt like responding too.

I apologize for thinking he was only dismissing 400-500 years of theology. I thought the main focus of Russ' rant was the theology of the Protestant Reformation. I waded though his rather wordy and abstruse post about as much as I could stand to, and I thought he was down on Luther, especially seeing he was attacking sola fides. Also, I thought he was thinking for himself, not parroting the mistaken maunderings of another idiot. Since he and his guru are of the opinion that Paul himself was in error, I won't bother to pay any further attention to him. If you dismiss any part of scripture as doctrinally erroneous, you throw away the doctrine of divine inspiration for scripture, and you can cherry pick which portions of it you agree with and disagree with the rest. Obviously, both Russ and the yo yo he's quoting are as weirded out as the yahoos who believe the KJV is the only inspired translation of scripture. The word I was looking for wasn't arrogance, it was credulousness.

Man, what some folks will believe...

[beckrl]

Beckrl,

Thanks for pointing that out Beckrl. I was discussing new creation with my pastor this afternoon including the theme of a cosmic temple. God, I believe, was building a cosmic temple in Genesis. In that culture, temples were the place where the gods rested. This, I think explains the Sabbath which has always been quite a mystery to me. Why did God need to rest? But I think it was always about God having a dwelling place with mankind. There was a debate among the Jews whether God actually continued to 'work' after the Sabbath rest of Genesis. Jesus said, "My father works until now and so do I." His statement from the cross that "It is finished." is quite telling. He then 'rested' in the tomb on the Sabbath.

The new creation theme is very evident in John as the verses you cited indicate. In Christ, we continue the work of the Father in building the temple. You sir, have just helped me connect some really important dots and I thank you for it!

Bless you brother.

Russell
When I read those and others scriptures it is intelling of what works we should do. If we consider the works that Jesus did and that we are to do greater works than he. How is that possible?
One reason would be His ministry was only for a short time some 3.5 years. We should do more or even greater works for we have more time to do more works. The other reason is because of the Comforter that He sent to us through him we are given the power to do these works.

John wrote letters to the seven churches of Asia and with in those letters he wrote that God knows thy works."I know thy works" Later John hears a voice from heaven that said, "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their Labours, and their works do follow them."

How do your works follow you?

[Russell Roberts]

I'm not sure Beckrl, tell me brother.

That brings up another interesting point Beckrl - Revelation ends with a picture of a temple in the paradise of God. It also refers to believers as being a dwelling place.

Rev 13:6 So the beast opened his mouth to blaspheme against God — to blaspheme both his name and his dwelling place, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

[beckrl]

Is that a temple are city? I believe that the city will not have a temple, for God and Jesus willbe the temple. And we as the living stones of the great city.

[Russell Roberts]

Well, it is New Jerusalem, so it is a city. But there are allusions to the temple as the Holy Place was cubical as is the city. So in a sense, both. But I realize it said there will be no temple because God's dwelling place will then be with men - as in the Garden of Eden.

[beckrl]

Then how do our works follow us? See that great city on the hill.
The foundation is layed with the how many precious stones?
We are all brick layers

[Russell Roberts]

Twelve foundations, I would guess numerous precious stones. You think those represent our works? It would make sense.