Watch & Learn

[Paully_44]

If anyone has done any serious inquiry into many metal bands (and other genres) it is clear of there message of how they view organized religion (including christianity) and how they view it as oppressive and controlling.

Uhh... I think history has shown that organized religion can very easily be oppressive and controlling. look at the former "advice to members". CoGoP definately wasnt the only one. IMHO, that is the dangers of being part of an organzied religion vs having a personal relationship under Grace.

Pastor Gary,
I thought the interview was very good. Good pace with the interview, the interviewee seemed comfortable (not-threatened) with you and the questioning How did you connect with this guy in the first place?

[MacUser]

IMHO, that is the dangers of being part of an organzied religion vs having a personal relationship under Grace.

[Brian]

If anyone has done any serious inquiry into many metal bands (and other genres) it is clear of there message of how they view organized religion (including christianity) and how they view it as oppressive and controlling.

Uhh... I think history has shown that organized religion can very easily be oppressive and controlling. look at the former "advice to members". CoGoP definately wasnt the only one. IMHO, that is the dangers of being part of an organzied religion vs having a personal relationship under Grace.

Paully, you should know that I am not defending "oppression and control". I was merely trying to show that many people believe that even christianity, despite what you call (and I agree) a relationship and not religion, many people don't separate christianity from the rest of the worlds religious institutions. So coming from that mind set it's easy to see how many people view christianity as oppressive and controlling.....and that even goes for the more modern groups of christians who are not like the old ways churches. To those people it makes no difference what your actual belief system is, if you go to church on sun. and observe basic accepted christian practices and observances then they label you as a religious institution and couldn't care less if you define it as a relationship and not religion. To them, you are still organized religion.

[MacUser]

many people don't separate christianity from the rest of the worlds religious institutions.

And this is the core problem as I default back to my original statement.

[Brian]

many people don't separate christianity from the rest of the worlds religious institutions.

And this is the core problem as I default back to my original statement.

ok MacUser, but is that the fault of the Christian or the misunderstanding of the accuser?

[Paully_44]

If anyone has done any serious inquiry into many metal bands (and other genres) it is clear of there message of how they view organized religion (including christianity) and how they view it as oppressive and controlling.

Uhh... I think history has shown that organized religion can very easily be oppressive and controlling. look at the former "advice to members". CoGoP definately wasnt the only one. IMHO, that is the dangers of being part of an organzied religion vs having a personal relationship under Grace.

Paully, you should know that I am not defending "oppression and control". I was merely trying to show that many people believe that even christianity, despite what you call (and I agree) a relationship and not religion, many people don't separate christianity from the rest of the worlds religious institutions. So coming from that mind set it's easy to see how many people view christianity as oppressive and controlling.....and that even goes for the more modern groups of christians who are not like the old ways churches. To those people it makes no difference what your actual belief system is, if you go to church on sun. and observe basic accepted christian practices and observances then they label you as a religious institution and couldn't care less if you define it as a relationship and not religion. To them, you are still organized religion.

Nah, I know that. I guess I was just pointing out that organized religion has kind of made it easy for people "on the outside" to have that view piont and also that this view is not held only to "metal" bands.

[MacUser]

ok MacUser, but is that the fault of the Christian or the misunderstanding of the accuser?

Ahh .. where does Paul say the problem lies in my default verse?

1 Timothy 1:3,4 warns against..
..so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4. nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by Faith.

[Pastor Gary]

Here are a few observations from my perspective:

• Atheist do not have dripping fangs and forked tails. They are not, in fact, our enemy. SATAN is our enemy, and he uses atheists, Christians, Pastors, politicians and sometimes our kids to accomplish his aims. There was a moment when his little girl popped into frame and he loved on her. I chose to not edit that out, because I wanted to illustrate that Michael is a nice man who loves his country, his wife, his daughter and his community. He is, IMHO, wrong as can be Theologically, but he is not my enemy.

• You might disagree with his argument about the Metallica song, but it is his argument, and we never win by arguing.

• The pastor was playing to the crowd, and it's an easy trap to fall into. If things are a little dry, and you know your congregation's hot button topics, you can get them stirred up and whipped into a frenzy fast. Pick the subject: evils of pop culture, current generation sliding to hell, our-church-is-holier-than-those-other-churches, KJV is the only REAL Bible, women are sneaky seductresses out to get you, Jesus might come back today...

• If we listen to "leavers" we might learn a little better how to close the back door and save a few.

• Not all atheists are angry militants who hate Jesus and want "In God We Trust" off the money. Some of them actually respect the church while rejecting its claims.

[Brian]

Here are a few observations from my perspective:

• Atheist do not have dripping fangs and forked tails. They are not, in fact, our enemy. SATAN is our enemy, and he uses atheists, Christians, Pastors, politicians and sometimes our kids to accomplish his aims. There was a moment when his little girl popped into frame and he loved on her. I chose to not edit that out, because I wanted to illustrate that Michael is a nice man who loves his country, his wife, his daughter and his community. He is, IMHO, wrong as can be Theologically, but he is not my enemy.

• You might disagree with his argument about the Metallica song, but it is his argument, and we never win by arguing.

• The pastor was playing to the crowd, and it's an easy trap to fall into. If things are a little dry, and you know your congregation's hot button topics, you can get them stirred up and whipped into a frenzy fast. Pick the subject: evils of pop culture, current generation sliding to hell, our-church-is-holier-than-those-other-churches, KJV is the only REAL Bible, women are sneaky seductresses out to get you, Jesus might come back today...

• If we listen to "leavers" we might learn a little better how to close the back door and save a few.

• Not all atheists are angry militants who hate Jesus and want "In God We Trust" off the money. Some of them actually respect the church while rejecting its claims.

True enough Pastor Gary. Michael seemed like a very nice respectable man who loves his daughter very much. I have no doubt about that.

Sadly his current atheistic beliefs is doing his daughter a great disservice.
I was in a customers home one time and we were talking matters of faith, she made a comment that almost made me cry for her young children. She said that she believes in God and basically identifies as a Christian, however doesn't practice her faith, and she said she would never "push Jesus on her kids", that she would wait until they were adults and let them decide on there own. WOW, I thought. What a huge disservice she is doing by not equipping her children with a foundation of truth! I was really sad.

Yea its his argument about metallica and arguing won't really help. But his logic is flawed when he said that just because the pastor might have been wrong on his characterization of the song/band that now he can't trust him on everything else he has to say.

And just because "leavers" leave, shouldn't imply that it's the fault of the church/pastor/denomination as being the cause behind there leaving. I mean sure, if we knew "why" people leave we can adjust to maybe show them that they are loved and wanted to stay. Sadly most people only use things like the metallica song as a reason to leave because denying themselves is a bit to hard to do. IMHO

But great video and discussion PG. I doubt I could have held it together so calmly without a little tiny bit of debate

[MacUser]

Here are a few observations from my perspective:

• Atheist do not have

PG.
Is this something you recently learned from your studies and want to share or a project/study to convince others?

Curious. Because I never thought anything remotely similar.

[Pastor Gary]

Here are a few observations from my perspective:

• Atheist do not have

PG.
Is this something you recently learned from your studies and want to share or a project/study to convince others?

Curious. Because I never thought anything remotely similar.

Not at all. It is something I have observed... some Christians fear atheists or treat them like an enemy to be held at arms length... and the ones who are militant, trying to rid God from public life make the nice ones look bad.