tithing

[MacUser]

OK, I was frustrated and I didn't word that the best, ....

How well do you measure against Christ's perfection?

We are perfect IN CHRIST, but not in our own actions, and as we strive to follow Christ and conform to His Will

Digging in deeper..

How? Receive it. Stop STRIVING by your own merit to receive a reward! You can't receive as a reward for something that is already yours by inheritance. Already FREELY made available as a GIFT. The word is clear that you just have to receive it to REIGN in life. Have you received it?

Romans 5:17 (NIV)

17. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

Why do we think that Jesus saved us to leave it completely up to us after that? Did Jesus save us and abandoned us? Absolutely not! We have EVERYTHING necessary to complete the task.


Last night I had yet another revelation concerning our discussions. A visual image of us on a boat and Jesus walking on water up next to us and extending HIS right hand for us to come with HIM on the water. Trusting Him completely that even if we were to fail on the way out.. He would CATCH US!! Just extending HIS hand.. curling HIS fingers.. wooing us to come... come.... WHOO HOOO

Saying "COME WITH ME" with his right arm stretched out... and I'll show you real rest. Trust on me and step out of your man made boat and experience living FREEDOM as the Sons and Daughters of God! Manifesting HIS NAME. Conforming to His likeness just by receiving it and keeping our EYES ON HIM!!!

It was awesome. This verse & translation then immediately came to mind.

Matthew 11:28-30 (The Message)

28-30 "Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you'll recover your life. I'll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me—watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won't lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you'll learn to live freely and lightly."

Gentlemen it has been an absolute PLEASURE to share these things with you. Settle this one fact in your spirit...God isn't mad at you. He's reaching out to you for relationship out of LOVE and not Fear. Jesus, OUR STANDARD, is so beautifully expressing this!! IF your image of God doesn't EXACTLY line up with Christ.. it's absolutely wrong.

Behold the LAMB my friends!!!!!

[lance82]

Pastor Bill,

I assure you that I have a wonderful pastor. I don't agree with him on everything. My point is that people get turned off by the church always wanting their money. I didn't point out my life or pastor in stating that. I was using the budget as an example. I too know ministers who give above and beyond to assist the church. However, even they need to be doing it as led by God. MY POINT IS... I'd rather hear God tell me to sell everything and move to a foreign land than hear a minister lay yokes on people that don't exist according to the NT. I have stated before that we go beyond 10% in our giving. My family has been richly blessed because we give cheerfully.

About.com lists "Why bother going to church when all they want is money!?" as the 2nd reason that people don't go to church. The first was "Church is boring".

This is my concern. My heart aches to see people missing Christ because they are hit with legalism in churches across the land. The sinner sitting in the pew hears that churches want their money louder than they hear that Jesus loves them and gave Himself for them. When we place roadblocks between people and the altar, we have completely missed the Great Commission!!!

[dawgs10]

And we made ordinances to bring the firstfruits of our ground and the firstfruits of all fruit of all trees, year by year, to the house of the Lord; to bring the firstborn of our sons and our cattle, as it is written in the Law, and the firstborn of our herds and our flocks, to the house of our God, to the priests who minister in the house of our God; to bring the firstfruits of our dough, our offerings, the fruit from all kinds of trees, the new wine and oil, to the priests, to the storerooms of the house of our God; and to bring the tithes of our land to the Levites, for the Levites should receive the tithes in all our farming communities. And the priest, the descendant of Aaron, shall be with the Levites when the Levites receive tithes; and the Levites shall bring up a tenth of the tithes to the house of our God, to the rooms of the storehouse.

if you truly believe that Jesus came to fullfill the law and not to abolish what God wanted to be kept from it then this is a tithe. anything else is an offering. its just not the first 10% its where the first 10% goes. i am free by the grace of God to follow the word of God and keep that which was not abolished. and i know some will ask well did you give your first born and the answer would be no. i gave both of my children to the Lord and asked the Lord to use them how he sees fit in their lives. i dedicated both of them to the Lord.

These are quotes from John MacArthur...
"Two kinds of giving are taught consistently throughout Scripture: giving to the government (always compulsory), and giving to God (always voluntary).
Tithes were not primarily gifts to God, but taxes for funding the national budget in Israel. Because Israel was a theocracy, the Levitical priests acted as the civil government. So the Levite's tithe (Leviticus 27:30-33) was a precursor to today's income tax, as was a second annual tithe required by God to fund a national festival (Deuteronomy 14:22-29). Smaller taxes were also imposed on the people by the law (Leviticus 19:9-10; Exodus 23:10-11). So the total giving required of the Israelites was not 10 percent, but well over 20 percent. All that money was used to operate the nation.
All giving apart from that required to run the government was purely voluntary (cf. Exodus 25:2; 1 Chronicles 29:9). Each person gave whatever was in his heart to give; no percentage or amount was specified.
New Testament believers are never commanded to tithe. Matthew 22:15-22 and Romans 13:1-7 tell us about the only required giving in the church age, which is the paying of taxes to the government. Interestingly enough, we in America presently pay between 20 and 30 percent of our income to the government—a figure very similar to the requirement under the theocracy of Israel.
The guideline for our giving to God and His work is found in 2 Corinthians 9:6-7 Now this I say, he who sows sparingly shall also reap sparingly; and he who sows bountifully shall also reap bountifully. Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver."

... nuf said!

a thus the issue. dont tax me and dont tell me to tithe. its my money and i am gonna spend it the way i want. sorry tell Jesus that. his teaching was to render to ceasar and that tithing is good.

[MacUser]

I was struggling in my finances, over my head in debt, and had all the excuses, feeling I was giving all I could, but not really seeking God in it either. Till God convicted me on it, and led me to take a harder look at what I was doing. I realized that I was not putting God first, and had allowed greed to creep in, I was still following God in other areas of my life, and I was trying to live for God, but I was failing in this area and was pushing the leading away with justifications that I didn't have any more I could give. Putting that Standard in front of me, God taught me to put Him first, and to seek Him first, then I was able to hear His leading more in my finances, and I can say today I am debt free (paid the last payment on my truck yesterday), Was God cursing my finances before, no, but my unfaithfulness was preventing me from giving God the control to bless me. When I began to put God first, HE was able to to lead me in ways that I had not seen before.

Recapping Here: Your finances were suffering because of something you were not doing correctly. You were basically serving God wrong ( not right )... because this standard wasn't met and thus you suffered the fallout of NO BLESSINGS. Not a curse, no.... but God avoided blessing you. You didn't have unmerited favor etc.

Then you easily received that performance standard and applied these RULES or necessary performance steps / cultural washings etc and after they were done things started turning around. ONLY After the wrong was made right/released to work based on that standard... you were restored and then able to experience the REAL blessings of God? He didn't curse you.. I understand that.... just essentially withheld whom He is by revelation from Jesus from you because you didn't give him the standard?

He essentially wasn't showing favor, leading, guiding, justifying, loving you FULLY.... until you dug deep and aligned with that standard. Then you were fully rewarded.


Brother.. regrettably... I fully understand. *sigh*

Response? Behold the LAMB!!!

[Full Quiver]

The sinner sitting in the pew hears that churches want their money louder than they hear that Jesus loves them and gave Himself for them.

I would rewrite this to say, "The sinner & the saint sitting in the pew......"

I get sick of hearing it. You have x amount of minutes to keep people's attention for the most part and you want to beg and plead for money. WOW, be what you say others ought to be and just trust God for the finances BUT preach the Gospel.

[Pastor Bill]

no Mac, you are twisting my words, it's useless to try to talk to you about it any further, you refuse to see anything further than the point you are trying to make.

I simply stated, by example that I wasn't trusting God in the way I should have, in the way he was trying to lead me (BOTH by His standards and His Spirit) and my unfaithfulness hurt my relationship with Him.

God wasn't punishing me, it wasn't a burden that I was failing in, I simply needed to trust in Him and let Him lead me (both by His Word and His Spirit) and once I did that, I was able to receive what he was trying to bless me with.

[lance82]

I've tried to discuss those things but it just exposes folks but that's what truth does.



Revelation is only founded in truth for it is truth revealed.
I'm not interested in a revelation of Judiasm. I am interested in true Christianity. We need to get it like little children get it and stop using our intellect to answer these questions. We as adults ALWAYS interject things that have nothing to do with what Jesus said. The law was a schoolmaster for the Jews to get to Christ. Sadly we Christians, whom started in grace & truth in the Spirit, were bewitched by "Christian legalism" and thus have had to use that as a schoolmaster to get back to Christ & true NT Christianity.

This stuff is simple and should remain so but the spirit of the world, the spirit of man, is to complicate things so that we can be on a pedestal for others to look up to. "Hey, hey, I have the truth, the standard, look to me and I will tell you how to live". We are to pint others to Christ: we are not the Holy Spirit and thus NOT the revealer of truth, not the exposer of sin, judgment, and righteousness.

Paul said I'll show you a more perfect way aka JESUS CHRIST. So many times we say I'll show you a more perfect way, tada, look at me.

Ministers, pastors, teachers are all one things and one thing ONLY. They are SERVANTS and only the humble ones that realize that are of any good to the church. I can pick out a handful of servants that I know and would willingly put them up against churches full of folks or even denominations and I believe they would be exponentially more effective for Christ. Of course the others would criticize and preach sermons on how they are doing it the right way while never accomplishing the task at hand. Feed the flock and witness to the world!

Thanks for that! Amen!! We must be about the Father's business! Not our own!!

[lance82]

Is there really no one who wants to discuss these?

What were the tithing requirements in the OT?
To whom were they required? What did Abraham tithe?
What did Jacob tithe?
When did tithing start as a post resurrection teaching?

why should we discuss OT. i thought you have been saying we are under Grace so we should not have to tithe.
and the tithing started as an NT teaching when Jesus said it was good. there is the answer.

Because that is exactly what you are doing... discussing and imposing OT principles that just don't fall in line with what Jesus said. He told leaders that were STILL living under the OLD COVENANT law to observe the Law... UNTIL He died and rose to complete the NEW COVENANT!!

You want to hold people to a teaching from the OT that you don't even understand. "Oh, my pastor said 10% was a tithe... he said that Jesus said it was good... now everyone must do it". The BIBLE says to study for yourself. What does it say in the OT about tithing? Once you know that, you will know what Jesus told them to do and why. You will also see what He was NOT saying!!

This thread asked for "HONEST". discussion. Dig in and answer the questions.

[MacUser]

no Mac, you are twisting my words, it's useless to try to talk to you about it any further, you refuse to see anything further than the point you are trying to make.

I simply stated, by example that I wasn't trusting God in the way I should have, in the way he was trying to lead me (BOTH by His standards and His Spirit) and my unfaithfulness hurt my relationship with Him.

Sorry I just tried to understand it by untwisting it and obviously illustrate a mondo mixture of covenants point. It was done at your expense and I apologize for that. As I said we are not far apart...

Let me untwist further my points with some scriptures.

*******

Romans 3:24 NIV
24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 12:9 NIV
9 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

Colossians 1:12 NIV
12. giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.


1 Corinthians 2:12 NIV
12. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.

Finally...

Romans 8:28-31
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

31 What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he that condemns?

******


This isn't my twisting.. in all LOVE.. this is Word of GOD!!! God isn't mad at us at all. Or withholding one thing from His Child based on any dead standard.

Receive the TRUTH.
Behold the LAMB!!!

[lance82]

The sinner sitting in the pew hears that churches want their money louder than they hear that Jesus loves them and gave Himself for them.

I would rewrite this to say, "The sinner & the saint sitting in the pew......"

I get sick of hearing it. You have x amount of minutes to keep people's attention for the most part and you want to beg and plead for money. WOW, be what you say others ought to be and just trust God for the finances BUT preach the Gospel.

Yeah, I would have worded it that way too... but wanted to avoid the, "believers shouldn't feel that way comment" from anyone. I pointed out sinners because those are the ones we work so hard to get in the door only to have them turned off by not giving them Good News... just hearing about the money they will have o give up once they join our group.

[lance82]

And we made ordinances to bring the firstfruits of our ground and the firstfruits of all fruit of all trees, year by year, to the house of the Lord; to bring the firstborn of our sons and our cattle, as it is written in the Law, and the firstborn of our herds and our flocks, to the house of our God, to the priests who minister in the house of our God; to bring the firstfruits of our dough, our offerings, the fruit from all kinds of trees, the new wine and oil, to the priests, to the storerooms of the house of our God; and to bring the tithes of our land to the Levites, for the Levites should receive the tithes in all our farming communities. And the priest, the descendant of Aaron, shall be with the Levites when the Levites receive tithes; and the Levites shall bring up a tenth of the tithes to the house of our God, to the rooms of the storehouse.

if you truly believe that Jesus came to fullfill the law and not to abolish what God wanted to be kept from it then this is a tithe. anything else is an offering. its just not the first 10% its where the first 10% goes. i am free by the grace of God to follow the word of God and keep that which was not abolished. and i know some will ask well did you give your first born and the answer would be no. i gave both of my children to the Lord and asked the Lord to use them how he sees fit in their lives. i dedicated both of them to the Lord.

Yes, Your tithes go to your local church, to the "house of God" if you will. I have seen that as well, those that spend their tithes on other things. I know one may who used his tithes to fund his Gospel Music group he was starting, he bought music equipment, paid for gas, paid his friends to come sing with him, and considered that paying his tithes, but that's not the intent.

How is what he did any different from the church paying someone from HQ to come speak... or pay gas for the church van... or tune the piano, buy drums.... ALL FOR MINISTRY??????????!!!!!!

[Pastor Bill]

And we made ordinances to bring the firstfruits of our ground and the firstfruits of all fruit of all trees, year by year, to the house of the Lord; to bring the firstborn of our sons and our cattle, as it is written in the Law, and the firstborn of our herds and our flocks, to the house of our God, to the priests who minister in the house of our God; to bring the firstfruits of our dough, our offerings, the fruit from all kinds of trees, the new wine and oil, to the priests, to the storerooms of the house of our God; and to bring the tithes of our land to the Levites, for the Levites should receive the tithes in all our farming communities. And the priest, the descendant of Aaron, shall be with the Levites when the Levites receive tithes; and the Levites shall bring up a tenth of the tithes to the house of our God, to the rooms of the storehouse.

if you truly believe that Jesus came to fullfill the law and not to abolish what God wanted to be kept from it then this is a tithe. anything else is an offering. its just not the first 10% its where the first 10% goes. i am free by the grace of God to follow the word of God and keep that which was not abolished. and i know some will ask well did you give your first born and the answer would be no. i gave both of my children to the Lord and asked the Lord to use them how he sees fit in their lives. i dedicated both of them to the Lord.

Yes, Your tithes go to your local church, to the "house of God" if you will. I have seen that as well, those that spend their tithes on other things. I know one may who used his tithes to fund his Gospel Music group he was starting, he bought music equipment, paid for gas, paid his friends to come sing with him, and considered that paying his tithes, but that's not the intent.

How is what he did any different from the church paying someone from HQ to come speak... or pay gas for the church van... or tune the piano, buy drums.... ALL FOR MINISTRY??????????!!!!!!

Because he was basically supporting his hobby, not really any ministry, and this wasn't "as lead by the Lord" this was His "tithes"

Honestly I'm done, you are trying to promote throwing out portions of God's word and claiming it as "freedom" Where do you draw the line on this? I tried to discuss this point with you, and you seemed to avoid it, SO if I say it's OK for me to commit adultery as long as I feel God is leading me to it, I'm not bound under the law that claims that is wrong? OR does the Spirit and His Standards of Right and Wrong work together in that the Holy Spirit would not lead you to go against those standards? It seems convenient that you pick and choose which standards seem to have disappeared and which ones you would still question what "spirit" was leading.

I an not under the bondage of the law, there is nothing I can do or not do that gives me more or less favor with God, BUT I also have to question when people say they are led by the spirit to live contrary to His word, and Frankly that is what you are promoting here.

God is not going to send anyone to Hell for not tithing, and I don't preach it as a requirement for salvation, membership or favor in the church, but I do recognize that it is a Standard God gave me and I am blessed in all things I do for Him. He has confirmed this by His Spirit, and I have been led BY THE SPIRIT to both practice and teach this principle. I'm not going to change that because you want to claim freedom from any form of right and wrong, that does not fit with His Word, nor the direction the Spirit is leading me.

[lance82]

Because he was basically supporting his hobby, not really any ministry, and this wasn't "as lead by the Lord" this was His "tithes"

Honestly I'm done, you are trying to promote throwing out portions of God's word and claiming it as "freedom" Where do you draw the line on this? I tried to discuss this point with you, and you seemed to avoid it, SO if I say it's OK for me to commit adultery as long as I feel God is leading me to it, I'm not bound under the law that claims that is wrong? OR does the Spirit and His Standards of Right and Wrong work together in that the Holy Spirit would not lead you to go against those standards? It seems convenient that you pick and choose which standards seem to have disappeared and which ones you would still question what "spirit" was leading.

I an not under the bondage of the law, there is nothing I can do or not do that gives me more or less favor with God, BUT I also have to question when people say they are led by the spirit to live contrary to His word, and Frankly that is what you are promoting here.

God is not going to send anyone to Hell for not tithing, and I don't preach it as a requirement for salvation, membership or favor in the church, but I do recognize that it is a Standard God gave me and I am blessed in all things I do for Him. He has confirmed this by His Spirit, and I have been led BY THE SPIRIT to both practice and teach this principle. I'm not going to change that because you want to claim freedom from any form of right and wrong, that does not fit with His Word, nor the direction the Spirit is leading me.

A few of things here...
1. Do you know this was a hobby? How do you know that he wasn't led of the Lord to do it?

2. How can you say I avoided anything? I said the following in an earlier post...

Regarding the precepts and heart of God, they are contained in the 10 commandments and in Christ's commands to love God above all and neighbor as self. Since this thread is specifically about tithes, our love for him and/or neighbor isn't measured on what % we give. It's measured on how selfish vs. selfless we are. Regarding what I would tell people living in sin; I would tell them what the NT has to say. I wouldn't stone them or send them to make sacrifices. Racism isn't an act of love anymore than adultry.
Am I saying that the standards of right and wrong are different for each person? Yes, like you, to a point. This is why we were freed by Christ from the laws to be led by His Spirit. Do you not see what Paul had to say to the Galations? 4: 8Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.
If someone is truly seeking Him, they will hear his voice regarding the matters you allude to. That is why we need to focus on discipling people to love and seek HIM out. Not teaching them standards and laws that are not meant for them based on the New Covenant we have with God through the blood, death, and resurrection of Christ.

3. I have said over and over again...give what God has led you to give. I have a problem with you teaching your conviction onto the shoulders of others. Teaching tithing outside even what the tithe was in the OT is what you are doing. Please answer the questions I have posed that you continue to avoid... What were the tithing requirements in the OT? To whom were they required? What did Abraham tithe? What did Jacob tithe?
When did tithing start as a post resurrection teaching?

4.If indeed you felt tithing was just a good practice and not required, you wouldn't call it a principle or a standard. That is what makes it LAW. You have waffled back and forth on this. How can you not call it sin, but call it a requirement on the same level as marital faithfulness. Come on, brother, it can't be both ways!!!

[lance82]

I an not under the bondage of the law, there is nothing I can do or not do that gives me more or less favor with God, BUT I also have to question when people say they are led by the spirit to live contrary to His word, and Frankly that is what you are promoting here.

I have never promoted sin in any fashion. Contrary to what "word"? Yours? The WORD is plain! Gal 3:10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."[c] 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."[d] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."[e] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."[f] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

[Full Quiver]

Pastor Bill, your remarks about your friend funding his ministry with his tithe not being right or of the Lord is so judgmental & condemning. Maybe you preaching in a pulpit is your "hobby" yet you expect others to fund it. WOW!

Maybe it's because we leave in a capitalist society but most people expect something for their money. If a ministry does not produce fruit then it doesn't deserve funding whether by an OT tithe, a NT tithe, or cheerful giving. We are asked, expected, and demanded to give when there are no results or before there are results.

Many points have been proven over these 13 or 14 pages.