How much better off since last GA?

[Dr. Ron]

Thanks Gary for the vote of confidence. And I am honored to be in the company of honorable men you mentioned...

You are so correct.....and there in lies part of the problem with the perception that the pastor doesn't matter.

We who grew up in COGOP, were taught that the vision came down from GHQ. We were simply the oxen that worked the fields to accomplish the vison of GHQ. And you know what.....it worked...because everyone was following AJT or MAT...myself included. I loved MAT dearly and never felt that he abused me in any way. But he was larger than life and when he spoke....though he was as ridiculed as GW for his slow and uninspiring delivery (not nearly pentecostal enough for many) he was able to motivate the entire organization to go home and fall in line.....and in that context and in that era , the thing worked.

However, we saw that the personality of the pastor always made a difference. My dad could build a church on a flat rock....and other men followed him to those churches he built and they were soon as dead as the men in the pulpit. Here is the real essence......some believed in the vision and were enthusiastic about it....others were just hirlings....Do you see any similarity today???? Of course you do.

So....bottom line.....you still follow strong leadership...even dajudge will admit that his church has been stronger and weaker from time to time depending more times than not on who the lead was.

[MrDanger]

However, we saw that the personality of the pastor always made a difference. My dad could build a church on a flat rock....and other men followed him to those churches he built and they were soon as dead as the men in the pulpit.

Same story with my Grandpa (Raymond) Lawson. Even in the years before his death, they would send him to a church that was dead till they could decide what to do with it. In no time, the church would be growing like crazy. They would then take the church, give it to another pastor....dead in no time.

Our local church has suffered through this. Dr. Ron, you know this well. The longest we have had a pastor is 6 years before they would move someone and then we seemingly had to start over from scratch.

[MacUser]

or maybe we should not follow pastors and attended church because thats our church and we want to support it. not directed to you but those that have left.

People follow leaders... they follow people. It has always been so. To think that Pastors are little more than interchangeable cogs in a big machine simply ignores the reality of human nature.

The pattern of scriptural leadership is people following anointed leaders.

BINGO! I have not even read anything past this point.. from the first page.. but Bingo exactly. The local larger churches in our area (1000+).. did not gain by fruit basket turnover of pastors or happen OVERNIGHT.. but only by building that relationship with the community and trust in the leadership.

I think a 15 year commitment at least and then the next pastor has to come in and be apart of the transition .. learn from the previous for a few years and slowly merge into that leadership position and cast a new vision ... IF NEEDED and God directed.

We've done so much injustice to the Church and Pastors families this way. Such a shame.

[MrDanger]

Now, I will say, what we need for this to work in our current system is a weeding out of those not qualified to pastor. Stop keeping small churches on life support and stop finding warm bodies to do just that. Just because we have two members that are a minimum age of 348 years old doesn't mean we have to find someone that can download a sermon and has read a Max Lucado, John Maxwell or Purpose Driven book.

[Dr. Ron]

Bingo Jeff.....but that kind of thinking will get you where I am.....lol

In 1978, Billy Murray was overseer of Tenn. We had 13 churches and a total of over 800 members in the Nashville area. We had the Youth Aflame Choir. We had some P&W nights at the old Tabernacle.....We packed the place out. I was young and obviously dumb and had the audacity to recommend that we combine all those churches and start a Mega-Church there. Of course that was met with great excitement and enthusiasm.

Now, on that spot, there is one of the biggest churches in Nashville and growing........the property is now worth over 50 million dollars....

Jeff is exactly right.....small struggling churches should be combined and pastors should expect to give their lives to their churches. And the perpetuation of ministry should be home grown and trained.

The whole idea of "Divine Appointment " has been over for a long time.
The growing denoms are doing just that. The United Pentecostal Church is a trailblazer in the pentecostal movement with the idea of combining small congregations and building megas. Many great success stories there.

And Jeff is correct. His church .........God bless 'em.....they have had every "personality" known to man who had a plan......still looking for MR. Right. I was offered that church when I moved back to Nashville......hummmmmmmmmmmmmmm????

[MrDanger]

still looking for MR. Right

Maybe that's has been our problem in the past. We should have been looking for Ms./Miss/Mrs. Right all along. Hey Dr. Ron, what's your mom up to?

[Mat]

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[Dr. Ron]

Mat.....well said son.....you are dead on. I organized two churches in SD while I was there (they have since been disbanded) I was on track to do
more in the NW territories (my brainchild)! I don't get no respect!!

The problem grew out of not having a definite expectation of those overseer planters. Then ..........well you said it well.

[Mat]

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[Dr. Ron]

Once again....well said. It has been an age old problem in COGOP. Let's get a guy who has done well in a local church where he is part of the culture and see what he can do in the West. Different culture out there. Tim ? Former pastor of Peerless was "sent out" as overseer and came home in a year. He was intelligent enough to recognize that he was not in the right place....and his ego was not so large that he could not make a good decision to get in the place where God could use his giftedness.,

There have been many such situations that have ended in disaster.
It is hard to take a person from the deep south and transplant them into a north western culture and see them become effective.....unless they have had extensive experience working there from time to time.

YOu are so on point with this. God give you grace to be heard.

Jeff. My mom is doing well. She is 83 and thinks she is 18. She is loving all the great grands.....and the church calls her Nanny.....can't imagine why She would love to hear from you.

[Mat]

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[DaJudge]

So....bottom line.....you still follow strong leadership...even dajudge will admit that his church has been stronger and weaker from time to time depending more times than not on who the lead was.

No question about it. I'm not saying the pastor isn't important. I'm saying that I have no use for people who church hop because "their needs aren't being fulfilled". Give me a break. That's like when a 45 year old man divorces his wife and shacks up with a 20 year old honey because he "just wasn't in love any more".

[Dr. Ron]

Dajudge, I agree with you my friend. I dislike the church hopper stuff too. Most of the pastors in this town have banned together to make sure that we don't allow a person to float from one to another without knowing that the "recieving" pastor will call the "losing " pastor for a reference. We are trying to stop that business even cross-denominational.

Mat.....I am not being nice to you....I am being honest. You know me well enough to know that I would nail you if I thought you were wrong!!!!
I do love you though............
Hope you are doing well.

[dawgs10]

So....bottom line.....you still follow strong leadership...even dajudge will admit that his church has been stronger and weaker from time to time depending more times than not on who the lead was.

No question about it. I'm not saying the pastor isn't important. I'm saying that I have no use for people who church hop because "their needs aren't being fulfilled". Give me a break. That's like when a 45 year old man divorces his wife and shacks up with a 20 year old honey because he "just wasn't in love any more".

i agree. i dont follow man. God is looking for people to plant their selves and work for him. my church has been up and down for years. we have maxed out the building only to see it fall back some. i suppose that is what happens when you are in a location for 60 years. we have moved locations, seeing growth and havent changed pastors. it has been proven time after time that people dont go to church for the pastor. they go for relationships with others in the church. most people dont visit for the first time because of the pastor, its usally because someone invited them in the congregation. if my pastor left i would not follow him because its my church and that is where God placed me. God will bless some that have stuck it out. hes blessing me and my church because of many that stuck it out.

[Pastor Bill]

Similar to what Pastor Bill and others stated.

Membership wise, we were not affected. I do know 2 people who were personally affected in that they are in a D/R situation and recently received their ministers license.

Honestly? That is good to hear, I know for a little bit there was some holdup on that, but I have the paperwork for one in this situation where we are halfway through the process, and was hoping we wouldn't see any additional holdups.