Assembly Expense

[Pastorbps]

This is clear as mud. Do you pay tithe on Salary only, Salary & Housing Allotment, or Salary, Housing Allotment, and Expense Allotments? I know how the tax laws work but how do you view it regarding tithing? Some say they pay on the gross but the gross of what (Salary? Salary & Housing? Salary, Housing, and Expense Allotment?)

[fezzik]

Some say they pay on the gross but the gross of what (Salary? Salary & Housing? Salary, Housing, and Expense Allotment?)

I don't see any reason to pay tithes on expense allotments...that's not salary or income. Expenses are only meant to cover expenses.

[RamboPreacher]

This is clear as mud. Do you pay tithe on Salary only, Salary & Housing Allotment, or Salary, Housing Allotment, and Expense Allotments? I know how the tax laws work but how do you view it regarding tithing? Some say they pay on the gross but the gross of what (Salary? Salary & Housing? Salary, Housing, and Expense Allotment?)

If you are in reference to me, let me hopefully clarify. I amnot a pastor (yet). currently I pay tithe on my gross salary. this is before 401k, before insurance it taken out etc. this is my conviction.

If I were a pastor, I would do the same thing. The Salary check that I receive from the church (if there is one), is what I would pay tithe on. that check has no reflection of housing allotment (at least in our church).

Housing allotment is a "paper-only" amount. this allotment is a tax benefit for being a pastor.

If you set up with your S&F committee for a certain amount to be used for housing allotment, that is what is used at the end of the year for the W2. it does not affect the actual salary amount, the check that is given (monthly, usually).

It is up to the pastor to actually have receipts for that amount or more, for this to be legal. those receipts are for housing. if the pastor does not track those receipts, then the allotment does no good.

If the receipts are less than the allotment for a given month, then it is up to the pastor to report the difference as income on their taxes; even though the w2 from the clerk/treasurer has a certain salary minus the full allotment amount.

example:
pastor gets $2000 in salary per month. (in my case, the tithe would be $200 from that amount, first thing). that means he makes $24,000 a year.

as a legal tax benefit, the S&F committee approve a housing allotment that the pastor asks for (this should be approved, since it is essentially up to the pastor to determine the correct amount) - let's say $1000 per month.

this allotment is paper-only. his salary check of $2000 ($200 tithe) still happens, and is not affected. the $12,000 allotment is then reported on the W2. this is done by subtracting the $12,000 from the $24,000. His reportable income (from the W2, and the church clerk/treasurer is now $12,000, with a note in the W2 saying that $12,000 was for housing allotment.

The salary is still the salary, and is "increase", in my opinion, and I personally would pay tithe on that amount (the $24,000). the allotment is a tax benefit, only.

With that example, it is up to the pastor to actually have at least $1000 of housing expense receipts available (This is the IRS). if the pastor can't come up with the $1000 in receipts for any given month, they need to track that and report the difference as income (even though the W2 has a different number - CPA's and Tax experts can assist here, this is all the detail I understand about this part - I don't know if it is "average-able" over the course of the year or not)

I do know that if one uses this particular system, of the housing allotment (and documented in the church business records), that it is not retroactive. and if receipts are continuously for more than the amount, that ONLY the specified amount is the reduction of taxable income. it takes a new F&S/business meeting to establish a higher amount. So it behoves the pastor to get this as close as possible.

If the allotment is always over the amount of receipts available, then that is a problem and challenging, as that amount will need to be reported as taxable income, can't take the whole amount, as mentioned previously - since receipts are required.

other "work expenses", such as required uniforms, organization fees, and dues, books and magazines that are professionally related, etc (again, I am not a tax expert as to what is permissible) - are expenses and also deductible as normal work related expenses. OR

if your church has the funds and some kind of expense account, the pastor may get reimbursed for those expenses. again - totally separate from salary. the reimbursements also require that a specific receipt be presented for these reimbursables as well.

It is illegal, and lacking integrity and honesty to take the reimbursement AND use the receipts for tax credit as well. these kinds of expenses are based on the pastor working with the local F&S committee and the local church body as necessary if funds are available.

So to continue that example, the pastor receiving $2,000 a month, and has at least $1,000 of housing expense receipts, and a $1,000 housing allotment would be taxed on an income of $12,000,even though I would have paid tithe on the $24,000 salary actually (gross) received.

not to muddy the water any more - there are retirement funds, and other benefits that could possibly play into this as well - and even though they may be "pre-tax", they are still part of the overall salary.

every situation and procedures are different and unique, but the processes are the same, as applied to the procedures.

[INLOVE]

Those churches that do pay Assembly expenses, do you include the spouse?

[Pastor Gary]

Housing allotment is a "paper-only" amount. this allotment is a tax benefit for being a pastor.

yeah... let's discuss the "benefit" of a parsonage...

Many Pastors live in a Parsonage on the church property, or, in my case, actually connected to the church/office. The "benefit" is that you are pretty much on-duty/on-call 24/7 because you are right there at the main site. The benefit is that when there is anything going on on site from a baby shower to a funeral for a non-member, you get knocks on your door, asking to borrow a punch-bowl, matches for candles, a white tablecloth, a knife, a can-opener, your oven, your bathroom (even when there are 5 others on site), dishes, stools, chairs, missing food items, ice, or any number of other items the host failed to plan for.

Because you live on site, in the "benefit housing" some members feel that the church yard is your yard, so the pastor should mow it and maintain it, and any light bulb that burns out or toilet that stops up within sight of the parsonage is the pastor's problem.

Because you live in "benefit housing" some members have no qualms about dropping by the office at 11:00 PM, and, since you're right there, knocking on your door and asking to use your computer for just a minute.

Because you live in "benefit housing" some members feel they have the right to open your front door and walk right in without knocking or asking, and even taking a visitor inside to show them where the pastor lives.

And that "benefit" is suppose to be taxed.

[DaJudge]

And that "benefit" is suppose to be taxed.

All true, PG. I've heard some amazing horror stories from relatives who pastor. But..... you've gotta admit, it is kind of nice not to have to pay rent or a mortgage payment. I don't think it should be taxed though.

[Mat]

removed

[one love]

Because you live in "benefit housing" some members feel they have the right to open your front door and walk right in without knocking or asking, and even taking a visitor inside to show them where the pastor lives.

Ok this is where I would have to say something PG if you live in a parsonage I know what you go through, not because I had one when I pastored but many I know do and this is the attitude. You and Matt are right.
Some even want to inspect and see if the place is clean enough. Then say well they are making $3000 a month and a parsonage they are rolling in money
It can be a blessing and a hard thing. I have never understood this. If you live in a parsonage that is your private space provided by the church!!!!!! Unless there is a thought someone is destroying the house they should respect your privacy just as they would want there’s respected.

I don’t even Like people to come to my house un-announced, I am much more private then some.

I thank the Lord you have one but I feel your pain and pray people will use wisdom because one day the pastor may feel it is not worth it and move, then they could be mad and say "what our parsonage was not good enough?"

People may think this is exaggerated but it is not I have heard many stories.

[Dr. Ron]

dajudge....the "benefits" of a church parsonage are actually very minimal.

I wouldn't live in another parsonage if it were the Taj Mahal. First, you never get to build any equity in it.....then the years pass and if you are not REALLY able to plan you have no place to live....like when you are done you are done. And God forbid that you die while you live in parsonage.

When my daughter in law's father died (he was an overseer) they were told at the funeral that they would have to vacate the parsonage in two weeks. This is not just COGOP.......this is everywhere.

When I was overseer, I came home to find people sitting at my desk reading personal and confidential correspondence. I was called while at the GA by some to tell me they were staying at my house and sleeping in our bedroom because we had a king bed in there and a tv. The guest room was a queen and had no tv.

When we got home, there were cracker crumbs in my bed.

A church that loves their pastor will sell the parsonage and give the man a parsonage allowance that he can use for his own mortgage. My church simply pays my payment. I never write a check.

Parsonages are as antiquated as pump handle wells....

[PastorDaniel]

Also just a note....a housing allowance does not "have to be" "paper only"...it could be $1000 or whatever in "addition" to the salary.

I've got mine set up to be paid first....and when we grow into a full paying church the housing will be in addition to the salary...It will be set up that way from the beginning and openly promoted as so.

But...in keeping with the idea in question...I'm a "gross" tithe payer and would pay tithe on the housing as increase...that's just me. Also, I don't deduct expenses. Not judging anyone who does....I just don't.

[pastorables]

Many Pastors live in a Parsonage on the church property, or, in my case, actually connected to the church/office. The "benefit" is that you are pretty much on-duty/on-call 24/7 because you are right there at the main site. The benefit is that when there is anything going on on site from a baby shower to a funeral for a non-member, you get knocks on your door, asking to borrow a punch-bowl, matches for candles, a white tablecloth, a knife, a can-opener, your oven, your bathroom (even when there are 5 others on site), dishes, stools, chairs, missing food items, ice, or any number of other items the host failed to plan for.

Because you live on site, in the "benefit housing" some members feel that the church yard is your yard, so the pastor should mow it and maintain it, and any light bulb that burns out or toilet that stops up within sight of the parsonage is the pastor's problem.

Because you live in "benefit housing" some members have no qualms about dropping by the office at 11:00 PM, and, since you're right there, knocking on your door and asking to use your computer for just a minute.

Because you live in "benefit housing" some members feel they have the right to open your front door and walk right in without knocking or asking, and even taking a visitor inside to show them where the pastor lives.

And that "benefit" is suppose to be taxed.

There is no dollar amount large enough to cover the "fish bowl" of parsonage life in the average church. I did pastor one church who respected the parsonage as the pastor's home.

Thank you, PG.

[pastorables]

If it is just for fun and fellowship, then that is just another vacation and the church shouldn't even consider it.

I couldn't disagree more.

How many COGOP's do you know that allow for vacations to their pastors? For the most part, the Assembly has always had to double as vacation for COGOP pastors. I know that was our case. A pastor's son was sharing with me recently that this was their case also. He said their yearly vacation consisted of a little pool time at conventions and assemblies, etc.

Even in the larger churches we served, we mostly had to add funds to even attend the IA.

As a COGOP pastor for 14 years, I contend that the pastors deserve every minute of family time that the IA will allow for. I don't ever remember being at one church that offered to send my family on a vacation, yet churches who love their pastors understand this need and give at least two vacations per year.

My 2 cents on this one.

pa

[Pastor Gary]

How many COGOP's do you know that allow for vacations to their pastors?

Not lately, but I had (past tense) a Board Member who took such good care of us it was amazing. For Anniversaries, Pastor Appreciation Day, etc. he would organize get-aways. We had a 3-day, 2 night VIP treatment at the Hale Koa with massages and spa treatments. Another time we had several days at the beachside "cabin" of the Admiral... when I say CABIN, I mean fully equipped 3 bedroom, 2 bath cedar home with a fully stocked kitchen, cable TV... 20 feet from the ocean.

He moved.

I miss him.

[one love]

get him back

[Pastor Gary]

get him back

I am trying. Believe me, I am trying. I am in contact regularly, still seek his counsel on matters, and he wants to move back to Hawaii within a few years. PLEASE, Lord!