New Church Starting on Dec 6

[dawgs10]

macuser, you seem to have no idea what you are talking about and i wonder if you have ever delt with this kind of issue. let me give you the inside story. we have learned one major truth. there are many "church planters" out there that have no intention to plant NEW churchs. they just want to move one congregation from one building to another, rename them and be in charge. there is not integrity in that at all. that is why we have focused on raising up leaders in one local congregation to continue to work in our congregation. we see this as a new fresh approach. many ministers in one church working on specialized ministries. if they are brought up in the local church then we know them and do not have to worry about them rustling members. (by the way we use to hang people for rustling cattle in this country). this has happened to a local church in my city just in the last couple of months. the youth pastor was meeting with his youth group on a seperate campas. when the pastor and leaders of the church stopped wanted to pay the extra bills and bring the youth group back to the main campas "God" told the youth minister to start his own church. he took around 100 people with him, young people and parents and known church hoppers. IS THIS BEING LEAD BY GOD? no way!!!!!! so we are saying this. if you want to work in ministry in our church you must understand that it is a comitment and we do not allow that kind of thing. if you do it we will have documents in place that says you went against your word. you dont have to come to our church to work in ministry if you dont want to. we are seeing God raise up people to do the work within this church. and no, i did not sign a document when i moved into the assc. pastor position. i would die before i do anything to hurt my church. and they know that. thats why i am in the position i am in. trust, and the fact that my church seen the hand of God moving in that direction. it is sad that you cant trust people that call themselves ministers to have integrity but its fact. so have them go on record. whats the big deal. there are many people that need to go on record in the Christian church today.

[MacUser]

macuser, you seem to have no idea what you are talking about....

Apparently not. I'm speaking to broader principle that you apparently don't grasp.



I took this photo this past Saturday on a flight between TX and MS and the number of sheer people, the number of sheer places is just staggering even in a local sense. Different social, ethnic, economic areas that need the message of Jesus. To restrict, bind or press upon a young person of God into a verbal agreement excluding the entire country is outlandish, narrow minded, and flat wrong.

Growth, Encouraging new alternative ministries, plants should be encouraged and even BLESSED. I would rather lose three of our members and see 100s possible thousands reached.. rather than holding TIGHT FISTED onto my last three with binding agreements and threats of reprisals.

On your specific local issues.. discernment is to be used on each individual basis. Will you get it right? No. Can we see the future no? You never let the actions of a few taint the entire body.

We serve an open handed God.. not a closed one.

[dawgs10]

again you ignored or did not read my last post. and i have never said country. i have said county. and that in our case is a county that does not need a new church building, there is one on every corner. most are half full. we need people that are full of integrity to get up and go to work within existing ministry. thats the issue. listen, if someone stood up in our congregation and said there is not a church like this in another city or county and i feel lead to plant one we would love and jump at the chance to send them out with our blessing and support. but if someone stood up in our congregation and said i feel lead to start a church plant across the street and i am going to take half of your congregation to do it that would be a different story. it would be a breath of fresh air if someone was honest enough to say what they have in mind anyway. thats the basic idea most of the time. there is a difference.

[dolfan]

It may be easier for me, in particular and now, to be philosophical about this topic, but here goes:

Sometimes dissatisfaction is a tool God uses to move people to do things when He knows them well enough to know that they won't be motivated some other way without it. Now, I don't "know" Sam, but I also have no reason to think he's someone who targets church members to launch on his own. And, even if some of that is going on, how do you get people who know what they're doing if they're not already doing it somewhere? Intent is everything on this. Regard for others is, too.

It can be done poorly. It can be done well. Let's just hope Sam and Jennifer, et.al. are doing it well and wish them the best.

[MacUser]

and i have never said country. i have said county.

I stand corrected on that. My apologies.

But my broader point remains. If God decides to move in a different fashion in your county no "non compete clause" will hinder that. We have to learn to follow after Him first wherever that leads us.

[Mike Vande]

I don't remember the exact stats, but I heard them from our church's pulpit some Sunday mornings ago; rising & falling numbers of church membership in this country is much more due to existing Christians moving from one church to another(and to another, and to another, and to another, etc) as opposed to new believers being born again.

We've all seen that sort of thing happen over the years. A new church starts up, sometimes with leadership that has left a local church for one reason or another, other times a church planter of some sort moves into the area and starts up. And the first folks that arrive are the folks who need ministry most but realize it least.

You know the ones I'm talking about; every flake, twit, yo-yo and malcontent who can't commit solidly to anything and hasn't for their whole life as a Christian. The "God chasers" who want to be where the new, happening thing is, and desert at the first inkling it's someplace else/ They loudly proclaim their new discovery's superiority over wherever they came from at every opportunity. They generally only last at a church until someone asks something of them they don't want to do, or doesn't let them do something they want to, or says something to them that "wounds" them beyond all reason, or they hear about the next new work that opens up in the area, or close enough to it that they can commute.

When people leave a body, sometimes there is a good reason for it, sometimes there isn't. But for the most part, the ones who leave when there is no financial or behavioral malfeasance, false teaching or unilaterally decided-upon major shift in ministry focus are usually the ones who take up more than their fair share of pastoral time and attention(either for chronic "insurmountable" problems in their lives, or due to the damages they cause to others).

Those people will probably be with us until Jesus comes back, But sadly, they aren't the only ones who leave churches under a cloud. There are people, otherwise serious and solid believers, who cannot receive teaching from a minister, often due to some real or imagined slight they just can't get past. Despite every attempt on their part and that of the pastor or leader(s) involved, rapprochement cannot seem to take place. A wise pastor once said that those people are better off leaving and going on down the road till they can find someone they can receive ministry and correction from. It's not the best of all possible worlds, but it is usually better than the alternative.

John Wesley told William Wilberforce that if God had called him to a work, nothing could stand against it for long, and if He didn't call him to it, the Devil was gonna wear him out like an old rag. Any upstart who decides to establish his own turf in an area without the blessing of God pretty much deserves what he'll get, which is a tough row to hoe with unreliable people to help him hoe it.

I pray Pastor Sam and his wife make it through the beginnings and bring new souls into the Kingdom. May God bless them richly that way.

[Jennifer Smith]

Thanks everyone for the well-wishes and prayers, If anyone would want to know more details, we would be happy to answer any questions you may have through PM. I understand why on the surface of Sam's initial post it might appear like a split or a division. This is not our intent. We believe God is sending this new plant both saved and unsaved people who are looking for a church. Many people who have crossed our path in the past two or three weeks are saying exactly that. There is a need for a healthy church in this area and we hope and pray to be worthy to meet that need. The church will be in a different county from the one we left. Our pastor knew of our ministry background and desire to return to fulltime pastoral ministry long before we left and we left with his blessing. We only want the people that God wishes to have there because we want the work to be blessed! And for the other church to be blessed too.

Thanks again and keep praying for us!

[MacUser]

Mike.
Good insight.. but I have a question.. why does a specific church have to last forever? What if it's only for a 1, 5, or 10 year season to do a specific purpose / local work and then heaven forbid dissolve? Are we prepared to start a work.. know it's temporary?

Do we have any specific scriptures that state once a brick mortar facility is created that it must remain functioning at all costs?

The real Church is all those good, weird, eccentric, crazy, liberal, conservative, old, young, black, white, single, married, evangelists, pastors, teachers, healers (insert your hypen or title here) people that believe in the promise of Jesus. The Church is ALL HIS Children that believe in His promise.

Buildings and Social circles are just that.

My 2 cents.

[Mike Vande]

Mike.
Good insight.. but I have a question.. why does a specific church have to last forever? What if it's only for a 1, 5, or 10 year season to do a specific purpose / local work and then heaven forbid dissolve? Are we prepared to start a work.. know it's temporary?

Do we have any specific scriptures that state once a brick mortar facility is created that it must remain functioning at all costs?

The real Church is all those good, weird, eccentric, crazy, liberal, conservative, old, young, black, white, single, married, evangelists, pastors, teachers, healers (insert your hypen or title here) people that believe in the promise of Jesus. The Church is ALL HIS Children that believe in His promise.

Buildings and Social circles are just that.

My 2 cents.

I believe that a church ought to be like a family, and that family's generations should be blessed and ministered to by it. Once it's lit, the light should remain on, and I can't think of any scripture that says otherwise.
On the other hand, from what I have seen of church history, it seems the the spiritual vitality of a movement of God doesn't usually outlive it's generation. Each generation has it's own move of God that sets it's people in motion for Him.

I'm not sure why that is, but I suspect it's not entirely the way God would have it. Sure, fresh manna for each day is the pattern, but it's still manna. I think God would prefer that people in churches get along and grow in love for each other as well as numbers. It seems to me that a church dissolving is something like a marriage dissolving. God doesn't like it at all, but He did provide for it because of the hardness of people's hearts.

Not everything that happens is Plan A as far as God is concerned. It's hard to know what is God's perfect will and what is His permissive will sometimes. I do know that when I've found myself going for his permissive will, I have eventually regretted that I didn't go the other way.

[dawgs10]

Thanks everyone for the well-wishes and prayers, If anyone would want to know more details, we would be happy to answer any questions you may have through PM. I understand why on the surface of Sam's initial post it might appear like a split or a division. This is not our intent. We believe God is sending this new plant both saved and unsaved people who are looking for a church. Many people who have crossed our path in the past two or three weeks are saying exactly that. There is a need for a healthy church in this area and we hope and pray to be worthy to meet that need. The church will be in a different county from the one we left. Our pastor knew of our ministry background and desire to return to fulltime pastoral ministry long before we left and we left with his blessing. We only want the people that God wishes to have there because we want the work to be blessed! And for the other church to be blessed too.



Thanks again and keep praying for us!

and that is the way its done. my prayers are with you. thank you for the insight.

[dawgs10]

Mike.
Good insight.. but I have a question.. why does a specific church have to last forever? What if it's only for a 1, 5, or 10 year season to do a specific purpose / local work and then heaven forbid dissolve? Are we prepared to start a work.. know it's temporary?

Do we have any specific scriptures that state once a brick mortar facility is created that it must remain functioning at all costs?

The real Church is all those good, weird, eccentric, crazy, liberal, conservative, old, young, black, white, single, married, evangelists, pastors, teachers, healers (insert your hypen or title here) people that believe in the promise of Jesus. The Church is ALL HIS Children that believe in His promise.

Buildings and Social circles are just that.

My 2 cents.

I believe that a church ought to be like a family, and that family's generations should be blessed and ministered to by it. Once it's lit, the light should remain on, and I can't think of any scripture that says otherwise.
On the other hand, from what I have seen of church history, it seems the the spiritual vitality of a movement of God doesn't usually outlive it's generation. Each generation has it's own move of God that sets it's people in motion for Him.

I'm not sure why that is, but I suspect it's not entirely the way God would have it. Sure, fresh manna for each day is the pattern, but it's still manna. I think God would prefer that people in churches get along and grow in love for each other as well as numbers. It seems to me that a church dissolving is something like a marriage dissolving. God doesn't like it at all, but He did provide for it because of the hardness of people's hearts.

Not everything that happens is Plan A as far as God is concerned. It's hard to know what is God's perfect will and what is His permissive will sometimes. I do know that when I've found myself going for his permissive will, I have eventually regretted that I didn't go the other way.

mike you are right on. perfect insight. it is like a family splitting. and that should not happen.

[MacUser]

It may be easier for me, in particular and now, to be philosophical about this topic, but here goes:

Sometimes dissatisfaction is a tool God uses to move people to do things when He knows them well enough to know that they won't be motivated some other way without it. Now, I don't "know" Sam, but I also have no reason to think he's someone who targets church members to launch on his own. And, even if some of that is going on, how do you get people who know what they're doing if they're not already doing it somewhere? Intent is everything on this. Regard for others is, too.

It can be done poorly. It can be done well. Let's just hope Sam and Jennifer, et.al. are doing it well and wish them the best.

Absolutely. Good thoughts.

[MacUser]

Thanks everyone for the well-wishes and prayers, If anyone would want to know more details, we would be happy to answer any questions you may have through PM. I understand why on the surface of Sam's initial post it might appear like a split or a division. This is not our intent. We believe God is sending this new plant both saved and unsaved people who are looking for a church. Many people who have crossed our path in the past two or three weeks are saying exactly that. There is a need for a healthy church in this area and we hope and pray to be worthy to meet that need. The church will be in a different county from the one we left. Our pastor knew of our ministry background and desire to return to fulltime pastoral ministry long before we left and we left with his blessing. We only want the people that God wishes to have there because we want the work to be blessed! And for the other church to be blessed too.

Thanks again and keep praying for us!

Awesome. Keep us updated.

[PastorDaniel]

So...what about this...

What if a pastor resigned...closed his church in a neighboring city...and a couple of families followed him to join a nearby church....and then after a year things were not going as well as the former pastor had thought (meaning the two congregations never really meshed well as one congregation) and the former pastor wanted to launch a new church...knowing that the families whom followed him to this church would probably follow him in launching a new church...and knowing that NONE of the existing members of current church would follow him to a new church plant...would that be a church split.....

[dawgs10]

So...what about this...

What if a pastor resigned...closed his church in a neighboring city...and a couple of families followed him to join a nearby church....and then after a year things were not going as well as the former pastor had thought (meaning the two congregations never really meshed well as one congregation) and the former pastor wanted to launch a new church...knowing that the families whom followed him to this church would probably follow him in launching a new church...and knowing that NONE of the existing members of current church would follow him to a new church plant...would that be a church split.....

would it hurt the people at the local church and would it go into a new town or community and would not effect the local church? is it a need for another church on another corner or is it an issue with those people just wanting to do their own thing? why cant Christians pool resouces and work together to build something larger and greater than what they can do apart? questions that should be asked in this kind of issue.