lies

[Russell Roberts]

FQ,

I can conceive a circumstance where it would accomplish the greater good. But we have to admit that most of the scenarios under consideration in this thread are pretty extreme. I doubt that many of us will find ourselves in situations where either sleeping with your neighbors wife or lying could conceivably serve the greater good.

The question posed though, as I recall it, was if lying was EVER ok. I think it is but again, the circumstances under which that would be true would be very rare. I think I have said my peace on the matter.

[MacUser]

I think this takes us to the crux of this entire thread.

As a minister, I may get asked "how was the pie?"... It could be the most awful pie I've ever tasted. I can say, "it was very tempting"... There, I have not lied, but I have not revealed the whole truth either.

pa

LOL..Brother this isn't about pie. This is about protecting YOUR wife, her integrity and her sexual relationships. It's specifically about his WIFE and that precious, precious... relationship between a Husband and Wife ( regardless of family kinship). I can't help you see something right on your nose. If you fail to see this and relate it to something as simple as PIE.. that's your choice. This was a serious whopper. A serious slimy grievous action of the worst kind.

If you can't see Abraham letting his WIFE being hauled off.. not once.. but TWICE to become part of another kings "women of desire, concubine, or wife" ... just to save his rear from "possibly being killed".


Here he first instructs her on how to lie to save HIS SKIN. Doesn't trust God to deliver.. but his own wisdom.

Genesis 12:10-13

10 Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to live there for a while because the famine was severe. 11 As he was about to enter Egypt, he said to his wife Sarai, "I know what a beautiful woman you are. 12 When the Egyptians see you, they will say, 'This is his wife.' Then they will kill me but will let you live. 13 Say you are my sister, so that I will be treated well for your sake and my life will be spared because of you."

Then after his Covenant Promise.. he even lies again.. a slimy scared man... whom GOD only defends in the wake of his whopper. Abraham could apparently have cared less about the sexual relations of his wife?

Genesis 20

1 Now Abraham moved on from there into the region of the Negev and lived between Kadesh and Shur. For a while he stayed in Gerar, 2 and there Abraham said of his wife Sarah, "She is my sister." Then Abimelech king of Gerar sent for Sarah and took her.

3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream one night and said to him, "You are as good as dead because of the woman you have taken; she is a married woman."

This example is extremely clear. God protects Sara even when Abraham fails to do so... even in his multiple lies... God is still protecting because of HIS PROMISE.

EVEN GREATER... was the result of extreme wealth and blessings that resulted from Abraham's refusal to defend, weakness and repeated lies. So you can say that God blessed Abraham even greater when he told the biggest lies? It's a fact.

Why? Because it wasn't about Abraham... it was about HIS PROMISE.
This is the crux my dear friend.

[Full Quiver]

Mac, you pointed out that the lies came after the promise of God.
Now God's will would have been completely circumvented had Sara been hauled off. Do you really thing God was going to allow that? So in that light did Abe's lie protect her or did her destiny?

We all know what Romans 4 says about Abraham. I will remind you of verse 22 specifically, Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Abraham WAS NOT a righteous man in and of himself. He was not holy and we have no scriptural evidence to show us that he was moral or ethical. God counted his faith as righteousness which obviously shows his own unrighteousness.

Of course all of us are unrighteous. The NT is CLEAR on that matter. If we were righteous we would not need salvation because Jesus came not to save the righteous, Matthew 9 I believe. Again the question was is it ever right to lie.

[MacUser]

Is it good to lie? Absolutely Not.

Will it eject us from God's Promise if we do in weakness? Absolutely Not.

[Mike Vande]

When the truth will cause unnecessary hurt, yes. You don't have to tell a homely person "Yes, you are homely" if they ask, you don't need to tell grieving parents you're sorry their unsaved kids are in Hell, and there are any number of other situations where the truth is in egregiously hurtful and therefore, inappropriate.

I read somewhere that a skunk is better company than a person who prides themselves on always being honest. A word to the wise...

[MacUser]

Mac, you pointed out that the lies came after the promise of God.

See Genesis 12
He lied before it also.. AND was also blessed with Riches BEFORE the Promise also. I love that.

Genesis 15

1. After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward

That's MY DAD!! This is what Paul speaks of Jesus covenant and what it means to us in Galations 3:29

Galatians 3:29 (New International Version)
29. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[Shellie]

Without reading through all the responses, (simply because we've been here before), I say that the real question is, "What is a lie?" and not necessarily, "Is it ever okay to lie"?

I believe true sin is not found in the breaking of the letter of the law, but in the intent of the heart.

Does the lie/untruth benefit oneself or protect another in servitude and love? Was the lie/untruth to protect one's own wrong or to protect the life of another?

Teacher to student: Do you have Johnny's test answers in your pocket?

Mexican Border Patrol to missionary: Do you have Bibles in your trunk?

Chinese government to undercover missionary: Are you here to teach English?

Dad to son: Did you break the lamp? No, Sir. I accidentally brushed by it. (lying to protect one's own butt and cover their horseplaying in the house which is against mom's rules in the first place)

Soldiers to Rahab: You seen any Jewish spies around here?
(lying to protect the lives of others to cover what is God's will in the first place)

So, I submit that there is a difference between a "lie" and an "untruth" and our perception of both.

God said in regard to Pharaoh's ways..."I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy". I believe that God judges the intent of the heart and not by the letter of the law.

[deb]

Rahab lied and made it into the Hebrews Hall of Fame.

Joshua 2:3-6

3 So the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab: "Bring out the men who came to you and entered your house, because they have come to spy out the whole land."

4 But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, "Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. 5 At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, the men left. I don't know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them." 6 (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.)


Hebrews 11:31

31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

[Brian]

strain at a gnat.

some of you guys have said that you would straight up kill an intruder if he comes in your home or if someone hurts your child, sexually or otherwise, some have said they would hunt them down and basically slaughter them but you have a problem telling said intruder that your kids are not home (there hiding) to protect them? give me a break

I was reading somewhere that there are roughly 3.6 million home invasions a year in the US, also that 60% of rapes happen during a home invasion. so like I said, if I am able to stop an intruder before he gets in then of course that is ideal, but if I have to hide my wife and children so they might have a chance then you better believe that if asked I certainly am not going to say "here look in the closet cause there over there". that is ignorance.

[Russell Roberts]

I don't disagree with a little 9 mm hornady hollowpoint justice if someone is messing with me familia.

P.S. Get the kind with the little rubber filled tips so the bullet won't get clogged up with clothing on the way into the perp for maximum expansion. Just a helpful tip.

[Full Quiver]

First off I don't think a home invader will believe anything I say and will discover for themselves what they want.

He lied before it also.. AND was also blessed with Riches BEFORE the Promise also. I love that.

Mac, I'm sure you don't mean to but it sure looks like you are celebrating the premise that you can lie, sin, and still be rewarded. Sounds sorta twisted.



Ok, let's start over; In light of Shellie's comment about horseplay breaking the lamp and then the kids lied about it. Is it ever right to cover your own butt by telling a lie when you know you did wrong.

WOW, got to love the "what if" crowd today. I suppose that's paybacks for all my "devil's advocate" posts.

[MacUser]

Is it ever right to cover your own butt by telling a lie

Didn't we just cover this with Abraham?

Twisted? Nadda. It's not about you. It's all about Him.

[MacUser]

if I am able to stop an intruder before he gets in then of course that is ideal, but if I have to hide my wife and children so they might have a chance

You would die to protect your wife, right? That's better than Abraham as he was only worried about his own skin. Talk about major character issues. Yet God still blessed him because he believed the promise.

Let that stuff sink in.

[Full Quiver]

It has sunk in Mac.

Now I ask you how does one reconcile the fact that God hates a lying tongue and yet still believe that you can lie and be blessed by God for it.

[MacUser]

It has sunk in Mac.

Now I ask you how does one reconcile the fact that God hates a lying tongue and yet still believe that you can lie and be blessed by God for it.

*sigh* apparently it didn't sink in then? Review all the Abraham stuff above. If you get confused, repeat.