IHOP Worship Song

[oletimer]

Psalm 104
1 Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.

All of the Who, He, and Thou's are identified to be God in the verse one.

Mt 15:8
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Mt 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Eph 5:19
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Eph 5:20
Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

[pastorables]

Psalm 104
1 Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.

All of the Who, He, and Thou's are identified to be God in the verse one.

Yes, I know. You miss my point though. God doesn't require a worship song that mentions God in every single verse, just as David didn't. It's the intent of the heart that's important.

Just look at the words in Amazing Grace or Rock of Ages. These songs are not about being religiously correct... they are about a pure heart of worship to God. When people write songs they don't think about whether or not they will be scrutinized over any specific wording, they are just freely expressing themselves to God in pure worship.

pa

[pastorables]

And ARE YOU REALLY CHAMPIONING LESS content in worship songs?

REALLY?

That is astounding.

No, and you know that's not my stance. Are you trying to frame my views unfairly to make yourself feel better? - pa

Heres my favorite one to rip on. My CHurch even sings it and leaves out the CHrist Verses.



Your love is extravagant
Your friendship, it is intimate
I feel like moving to the rhythm of Your grace
Your fragrance is intoxicating in our secret place
Your love is extravagant

I think it'd go over good with Marving Gaye following up with "Lets get it on"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well, you wouldn't like a song written by Solomon then would you? (and I'm not supporting the song you allude to as I've never even heard it) I am saying that a worship song could sound offensive if not listened to with a holy frame of mind.

In Song of Solomon, God is speaking to his people in poetic songs which unfold as a love story. Is it possible the song you reference is based upon the Song of Songs?

The Song of Songs certainly sounds suggestive at times to the natural mind, but it's actually a very beautiful allegory of Christ and his bride. - pa

Just a small sampling:

Song of Solomon 4:5-10
5 Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins, which feed among the lilies.
6 Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, I will get me to the mountain of myrrh, and to the hill of frankincense.
7 Thou art all fair, my love; there is no spot in thee.
8 Come with me from Lebanon, my spouse, with me from Lebanon: look from the top of Amana, from the top of Shenir and Hermon, from the lions' dens, from the mountains of the leopards.
9 Thou hast ravished my heart, my sister, my spouse; thou hast ravished my heart with one of thine eyes, with one chain of thy neck.
10 How fair is thy love, my sister, my spouse! how much better is thy love than wine! and the smell of thine ointments than all spices!

[Gerald]

I am saying that a worship song could sound offensive if not listened to with a holy frame of mind.

SO everyone that comes to worship is ALREADY HOLY so therefore, they shouldnt see anything as offensive?

YOu never have those that struggle that come to worship?

YOu never have those that hurt and are weak come to worship?

HEY! I have an idea! Instead of singing something that could be sung to a sexy lover, how about singing something about a scriptural truth that they could remember to sing during the week!! Wouldnt a song that told of Christs love for me (rather than MY love for him) be encouraging to those who struggle, are hurt and weak??



SInce, in your words, it is OKAY to sing something that COULD be taken offensive if not sung in a HOLY frame of mind, is it okay for me to WATCH something offensive if I do so in a Holy Frame of mind??

[MacUser]

THis is a Serious post:


(I thought I'd warn y'all ahead of time)


I'm really beginning to wonder if CHURCH has evolved out from under me.

This is a TRUTHFUL accessment of a "typical" Sunday service.


Worship (after the young women and their red scrave dances) consists of three or four "worship" songs led by the most emotional extrovert in the church. Chances are a good 50% the name of Jesus will not be mentioned or any scripture. Theres a lot about YOU and how we feel about YOU.

Chances are also good that people, after repetative singing, begin to become emotional. 100% of the time it's the women. After the people become emotional about how good they feel about singing about how good they feel about you, someone, usually THE PASTOR, gets up and says something along the lines of "We've already had Church" or "God is here in a special way" Because the BEST of GOD and CHURCH consists of old women squealing and crying.

If we make it to the message (if you could call it that) we have a message where scripture is picked to show a "principle" or "example" where WE can MAKE God do something for US, usually along the lines of DO (Or pray) x & Y and you'll get God to do "Z". If the results are slow in coming, we're advised, essentially, to tie a knot in it and hang in cause God WILL do something fantastic. Just wait. It dont matter how old, used up or sick you are.

So church consists of me singing about my feelings (about You) and being instructed in scripture How to Get My Way.

Again, you have amazing perception! Bravo. Question: Is your suggestion to somehow build a better one with better rules or is this entire model wrong and exposed?

[pastorables]

I am saying that a worship song could sound offensive if not listened to with a holy frame of mind.

SO everyone that comes to worship is ALREADY HOLY so therefore, they shouldnt see anything as offensive?

YOu never have those that struggle that come to worship?

YOu never have those that hurt and are weak come to worship?

HEY! I have an idea! Instead of singing something that could be sung to a sexy lover, how about singing something about a scriptural truth that they could remember to sing during the week!! Wouldnt a song that told of Christs love for me (rather than MY love for him) be encouraging to those who struggle, are hurt and weak??



SInce, in your words, it is OKAY to sing something that COULD be taken offensive if not sung in a HOLY frame of mind, is it okay for me to WATCH something offensive if I do so in a Holy Frame of mind??

Gerald,

I'm saying if it's good enough for God, it's good enough for me. There are those who are going to think what they want, take offense to what they want, and criticize what they want. That works with worldly issues as well as godly issues and it's always been that way from the beginning of time.

There's nothing you can say from God's word to embarrass me whether delivered in sermon or song, although not everyone shares that view.

I once showed a young minister the following scripture in discussion about some of these very issues. He couldn't believe that something he deemed so offensive could be in God's holy word. He appeared to tear up and seemed offended at the inclusion of the following scripture in the Bible:

1 Kings 14:10
Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall,

This one seems even more offensive.

Isaiah 36:12
But Rabshakeh said, Hath my master sent me to thy master and to thee to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men that sit upon the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?

Through the years, I've heard ministers grunt, cough, and clear their voice rather than speak the potential offensive words. To the contrary, I've preached these issues and others with a clear conscience. As I said before, Song of Solomon has many thoughts that can be viewed as provocative or offensive. Through the years, I have preached a beautiful sermon on "Lover Come Back" based on the book.

There are other thoughts throughout the Bible that can be taken offensive if not received as God intends. I've been told of ministers at BTI who would sing a song about the following scripture when dealing with marriage:

Proverbs 5:19
Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.

As Christians, we have to be adults and spiritually minded when studying these issues. As for the world, they are carnal to begin with and will judge accordingly at the risk of straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

Hmmmm. Errrrr. What was the original subject again?

[pastorables]

Wouldnt a song that told of Christs love for me (rather than MY love for him) be encouraging to those who struggle, are hurt and weak??

Not rather than... for each song has it's place.

If we are discussing worship, that's a song of adoration for the express purpose of exalting God with all of our heart, all of our soul, and all of our mind. A true worship song is all about our love for him.

Now, if you want to discuss songs that deal with his love for us that's fine, but that's not a worship song. That would be another subject all together.

We could start with "Jesus Love Me", a wonderful song, but not a worship song. I suppose it would be more of a song of self edification or encouragement.

pa

[Gerald]

Pastor Ables: Why is the definition of a Worship Song, singing about how "I" feel?


BTW The song which started this thread was nothing more than a chant, repeated ad nauseum hypnoticlly.

Is THAT a worship song?

[Gerald]

Again, you have amazing perception! Bravo. Question: Is your suggestion to somehow build a better one with better rules or is this entire model wrong and exposed?

I find no edification whatsoever in singing about how I feel or listening to others singing how They feel, nor do I find anything helpful in the false presuption that we can manipulate God into doing what we want if we just jump through the right hoops and in the correct sequence.

People are happy with the contrived and the mundane, find comfort (and in the case of the "Doers" power) in the status quo, and are excited by their own emotions and the display of emotions by others.

Read the rest of Jude2 where critics are called fools.

It is the talk of Fools not to want to sing about how you feel.
It is the talk of fools to want more Biblical preaching.
The way things are have been established by the movers and shakers, how dare they be questioned?

I have become increasingly convinced that the current trends in church (and perhaps even older trends in church beyond my experience) are not for all people.

If you are emotionally demonstrative, church is for you.
If you love to express snotty weepy emotions in church you are comfortable there.

If you are gregarious and an extrovert, church is for you. YOu get off on holding hands when praying, hanging onto peoples shoulders in the altar, the hugging and the brotherly and sisterly kissing.

If you wish to stimulate your mind, your Sure out of luck. You'll not be Biblically educated by sermons which tell you over and over and over about what you NEED TO DO, and rarely ever about God and what he has done.

Perhaps I have been around too long, I can listen to a message and say "Now he'll appeal to this passage" and lo and behold there it is.

Or I can listen to a preacher and say "What you are preaching flatly contradicts the bible here, here and here". ONe time, out of curiosity, I compiled a list of seventeen scriptures which flatly contradicted what the pastor preached on Sunday morning.

BUt the success of a service or even a Mesage today is not based on truth, it is based upon how the people feel about it. The 17 scriptures flatly contradict sermon, was judged a good sermon because it "ministered" to people in need. IN other words: It made them feel good about their lives.

And that's all that most Christianity has become: Making People feel Good about themselves.

Even Christ's death is prostituted for the purpose, as one person recently said "Christ died for you because you are a treasure."

[dolfan]

Again, you have amazing perception! Bravo. Question: Is your suggestion to somehow build a better one with better rules or is this entire model wrong and exposed?

I find no edification whatsoever in singing about how I feel or listening to others singing how They feel, nor do I find anything helpful in the false presuption that we can manipulate God into doing what we want if we just jump through the right hoops and in the correct sequence.

People are happy with the contrived and the mundane, find comfort (and in the case of the "Doers" power) in the status quo, and are excited by their own emotions and the display of emotions by others.

Read the rest of Jude2 where critics are called fools.

It is the talk of Fools not to want to sing about how you feel.
It is the talk of fools to want more Biblical preaching.
The way things are have been established by the movers and shakers, how dare they be questioned?

I have become increasingly convinced that the current trends in church (and perhaps even older trends in church beyond my experience) are not for all people.

If you are emotionally demonstrative, church is for you.
If you love to express snotty weepy emotions in church you are comfortable there.

If you are gregarious and an extrovert, church is for you. YOu get off on holding hands when praying, hanging onto peoples shoulders in the altar, the hugging and the brotherly and sisterly kissing.

If you wish to stimulate your mind, your Sure out of luck. You'll not be Biblically educated by sermons which tell you over and over and over about what you NEED TO DO, and rarely ever about God and what he has done.

Perhaps I have been around too long, I can listen to a message and say "Now he'll appeal to this passage" and lo and behold there it is.

Or I can listen to a preacher and say "What you are preaching flatly contradicts the bible here, here and here". ONe time, out of curiosity, I compiled a list of seventeen scriptures which flatly contradicted what the pastor preached on Sunday morning.

BUt the success of a service or even a Mesage today is not based on truth, it is based upon how the people feel about it. The 17 scriptures flatly contradict sermon, was judged a good sermon because it "ministered" to people in need. IN other words: It made them feel good about their lives.

And that's all that most Christianity has become: Making People feel Good about themselves.

Even Christ's death is prostituted for the purpose, as one person recently said "Christ died for you because you are a treasure."

Two words: Francis Chan.

Read Crazy Love. Watch everything you can find with him on YouTube. Not only will you find a guy who says all this, too, but you'll find the guy that is also impacting the local church where I am in a profound way. I'm not saying that every worship song we do falls outside of the lyrical problems you're pointing up -- some are like you say. Not many, but some are. I'm not content with that, but that's not where the battles are being fought in the lives of people where we are. The battles are with divorces, addictions, lax evangelism, lax demonstration of Jesus' ways outside the church walls, teens gone haywire, etc. ....and those are the battles we're fighting and not running from with highly emotional pablum put to music. Wherever we do have such a song in our mix of worship music, I quietly don't sing. I'm hearing less of it over time, though.

But, again -- Francis Chan, Gerald. I think the work he's done and taught to do is what you're hoping to hear in your own church. So, if you're not hearing it there, hear it from him and DO it in your church. Maybe you can be part of the rudder that turns it around. Maybe it won't matter so much as God moves you into where He places you. Chan is not a guru or a guy with all the answers. He is one of several more well known guys who are saying largely what you are in many ways. Seriously.

[scooter]

Even Christ's death is prostituted for the purpose, as one person recently said "Christ died for you because you are a treasure."

Response: Hey lets play a game you be the worm and I'll be the treasure!

[Gerald]

Even Christ's death is prostituted for the purpose, as one person recently said "Christ died for you because you are a treasure."

Response: Hey lets play a game you be the worm and I'll be the treasure!

Only if you promise to sing the theme song:

There is none like me, There is none like me,
You can search for all enternity Lord,
There is none like ME!

[Gerald]

Two words: Francis Chan.

Read Crazy Love. Watch everything you can find with him on YouTube. Not only will you find a guy who says all this, too, but you'll find the guy that is also impacting the local church where I am in a profound way. I'm not saying that every worship song we do falls outside of the lyrical problems you're pointing up -- some are like you say. Not many, but some are. I'm not content with that, but that's not where the battles are being fought in the lives of people where we are. The battles are with divorces, addictions, lax evangelism, lax demonstration of Jesus' ways outside the church walls, teens gone haywire, etc. ....and those are the battles we're fighting and not running from with highly emotional pablum put to music. Wherever we do have such a song in our mix of worship music, I quietly don't sing. I'm hearing less of it over time, though.

But, again -- Francis Chan, Gerald. I think the work he's done and taught to do is what you're hoping to hear in your own church. So, if you're not hearing it there, hear it from him and DO it in your church. Maybe you can be part of the rudder that turns it around. Maybe it won't matter so much as God moves you into where He places you. Chan is not a guru or a guy with all the answers. He is one of several more well known guys who are saying largely what you are in many ways. Seriously.

Will check him out. Deinitely.

[scooter]

Even Christ's death is prostituted for the purpose, as one person recently said "Christ died for you because you are a treasure."

Response: Hey lets play a game you be the worm and I'll be the treasure!

Only if you promise to sing the theme song:

There is none like me, There is none like me,
You can search for all enternity Lord,
There is none like ME!

Response: No problem got the fingerprints to prove it.

[pastorables]

Pastor Ables: Why is the definition of a Worship Song, singing about how "I" feel?

BTW The song which started this thread was nothing more than a chant, repeated ad nauseum hypnoticlly.

Is THAT a worship song?

Honestly, I watched very little of that chant song. Personally, I didn't care for what I saw of it. By the same, what about chanting and drum worship in other cultures? Does God not receive this style of worship when it's from a believer in Africa? What about instrumental worship with no lyrics? I have worshipped the Lord before by just playing drum solos. Does that not count?

Actually, I engaged you on this subject based upon our past discussions on worship. I believe one song in particular was the following, "Let It Rain":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmw82oZ046A

The song is very simple and nothing to write home about, but I have truly worshipped God to it before. It's actually more of a prayer (can you say lamentation?) than a worship song.

To me, songs like "Let It Rain" and "Breathe" do not fall under the worship song category, but are actually more like songs of encouragement.

The following song, included in Banner Hymns, was written in 1945 but isn't a true worship song either. It's more of an encouragement song as well, though we have sang it in worship services for years. Should we discount it as valid for a worship service since it doesn't mention God, Jesus, the cross, or repentance? It's actually a great song of celebration that goes to show we can't judge every song with a cookie cutter mentality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfcWOjg3Jqw

Again, I think the crux of the matter lies in the heart of worship and not always the particular music genre or song style.

pa