Strange coincidence or Ordered steps?

[oletimer]

Gerald Creasy posted:

What I find interesting is that there is SO MUCH SCRIPTURE that CHRISTIANS REFUSE TO THINK ABOUT.

One that I find comfort in is ;

Heb 11:1
¶ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Because of this next verse this frist verse hasd more meaning.

2Co 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

That now that I have a hope that this world doesn't have, so that if the storms come my way, I can still rejoyce in the Lord and the good that He does for me. You reckon that is why the children of God in some countries serve God knowing that at any time they may be killed, beaten, or inprisoned?

Jamais Vu Posted:

so what is the purpose of all the hundreds of thousands of innocent children being raped, abused, and murdered at the hands of people whom have never been caught? what is the greater cause, after all God is a just God right??

I may be using this quote a little out of intent, but to bring out a point, They are not the will of God but because of sin and not nessary that of the victims, but because of sin that is in the world these things happens.

My only hope to be rid of any of these thingts is that hope of that heavenly home on the other side of death in Christ Jesus.

One thing for sure is that sinners will always have the miserable pain of sin in their lives even after death.

Sorry for the highjack of this thread.

[Tracy]

Sorry to take so long to respond. I was unable to log in for hours on end, then we had chicken butchering day here on the farm. I'm finally able to sit down and respond to your comment.

Actually it is not God's Will that any should perish but ALL come to repentance and sadly MOST DON"T. This is absolute proof that God was not in control over these individuals or else they would all be saved because HE would have made/designed them to repent.

2+2=4 from where I come from but some don't believe this obviously.

I am shocked that you believe that God is not in control of human beings. Utterly shocked.


No, that verse isn't absolute proof that God is not in control. There is much I can say here, but I will try to be to the point. Insisting that the God of the universe is not in control of some people is a huge error, and I very much want to clear this up. I will try to systematically walk through this and show carefully how scripture says otherwise. There will be much I leave unsaid in the interest of time and attention.


The first thing to point out is that scripture is very clear that God wills things in different senses--different ways. You know this. A clear example is the crucifixion of His Son. There is a real sense in which God is not willing that people sin and murder and spit on His Son. We can say with truth, "God is not willing that people murder His Son. God is not willing that people slap His Son and mock Him and punish the innocent."
Based on your logic, then, we would be forced to stop there and insist that since people did indeed murder and spit and mock and slap His Son, then God wasn't in complete control at the crucifixion.


But the Bible doesn't stop there. You see, God can will things in one sense that He doesn't will in another sense, to accomplish His purposes and bring His plans to fruition. (There are theological terms for this--ie. decretive will, preceptive will, etc.) Acts 4:27-28 is one place that shows this, although there are many, many other places that I could show you in scripture. Notice God willing (in one sense) what He doesn't will in another sense:

"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You annointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."


God purposed and predestined what occurred at the crucifixion: the mocking, slapping, spitting, and murder of His Son. He ordained it, He predestined it, He planned, it and He willed it. But we know that God isn't willing that people murder--that is sin.

So with this one example, we can say:

God isn't willing that people sin by murdering. (Preceptive Will)
God willed that people murder His Son. (Decretive Will)

These propositions are not contradictory, because we are talking about two different senses--a law of formal logic that is important to keep in mind.

This is because He can and does will things in different senses. His will of decree is that which He has, from eternity past, willed will happen. But sometimes this will of decree goes against His precepive will--ie. what He has stated in His precepts.

Again, we can see this in our example: from all eternity, God's decretive will has been that people sin by murdering His Son. God's preceptive will, however, is that people not murder. He is not willing that people murder.

That God ordains that His preceptive, stated will be broken does not mean that He is not in control. It means that He is in control, working things out for His purposes--just like the murder of His Son.

Therefore, based on what scripture tells us about God and His sovereignty and His willing, it is obvious that He can and does will things in one sense that He doesn't will in another.

We can now apply this to the verse that you mentioned...

God is not willing, in one sense, that any perish. His preceptive will is that all bow, all come, all recognize His authority and lordship, lay down their idos and repent.

God IS willing, in another sense, that some perish however. He is willing according to His permissive will--He permits them to go astray.
Further, God has known, from eternity, who will be saved and who will not. Knowing, then, that many will never come to Him, He willingly created them anyway, knowing full well that they would not repent and as a result, perish. He, in effect, knew that specific people would go to hell, and He created them anyway. His decretive will is that these people be created and perish. He purposes their perishing: He could have chosen not to create them. But He has purposes higher than we can ever dream--and so some perish according to His decretive and permissive, will.

So far from being out of control, He is in complete control. I've just shown you scripture to back up what is true about God's will. A careful reading of scripture will show this time and time and time again.
There are other scriptures which show that God is willing in some sense that people perish, though He is unwilling in another sense.

Dan 4:35 says "But He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth. And no one can ward off His hand, or say to Him, "What have You done."

You have said that some people are outside the scope of God's control, but this verse says exactly the opposite. He does His will among the inhabitants of the earth (ie. including those who are perishing--according to His will), and no one can ward Him off. No one. He is in complete control among the people of the earth. To say that He isn't in control is to go utterly against this scripture.


Another verse to consider when suggesting that some people are out of God's control and capable of frustrating His plans and intentions and will...


Psalm 33:10-11 "The Lord nullifies the counsel of the nations; He frustrates the plans of the peoples: (and instead, here is the contrasted reality of what actually happens...) The counsel of the LORD stands forever and the plans of His heart from generation to generation.


Rather than people frustrating the plans of God (as you believe), God is the one who does the frustrating. And notice--His counsel and His plans stand!! Always. In every area. Period.


That is why taking the verse that says that He is not willing than any perish to mean that God wants in every sense possible for everybody to be saved and since some aren't then His plans get thwarted and His will gets frustrated and teeny, human beings have control that He doesn't have is utterly wrong.


Consider also Prov 21:1 to see the origin of the turning of the hearts of human being: "The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes."


The king--the most sovereign human on earth--even the king, and so much the same for the rest of us--his heart is turned by God. If hearts turn, God does it. No one comes to God unless God turns their heart. Why would we assume since God does the turning in the first place, that He is out of control if He chooses not to turn the hearts of some? We don't, because it isn't true. He is never out of control.


Many plans are in a man's heart, BUT the counsel of the LORD will stand. Prov 19:21

God's purposes are NEVER thwarted. His sovereign will NEVER frustrated.

As Job 41 says, "For I know that you are God, and no purpose of Yours can be thwarted." If God purposed for everyone to be saved, everyone would be saved. He doesn't.

You see, when someone interprets a verse, and that interpretation goes against huge amounts of scripture, then the conclusion is that the interpretation is wrong. Your interpretation of your proof text that says, "God does not have control over some human beings" is in direct contradiction to large amounts of scripture. When this happens, we must look for another way to understand the verse which still upholds the integrity of the verse and its context, but also agrees with the teaching of the rest of scripture. The interpretation that I have given does this.

I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for [there is] a time there for every purpose and for every work.

Proof there is more than one purpose at work this Earth.

Yes, there are billions upon billions upon billions of purposes at work. But only one always gets accomplished and never frustrated: God's sovereign purpose, which the Bible says is NEVER thwarted.
He is utterly sovereign.

I hope you are encouraged by the sovereignty of your Mighty God.

Blessings,
Tracy


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[scooter]

It'd be pretty stupid of God to get angry then wouldn't it.

[Jamais Vu]

im pretty sure God gave us free will......hmmm free will, what a concept.

if i get some pretty bad gas......it is because i chose to eat some chili-dogs, not because it is impossible for God to be fartstrated!

[Pastor Don]

Tracy;
The doctrine you hold is one of predestination to the point that man does not have a will. The true Hardshell Baptists preach such a doctrine. They only meet sporadically because those who are gong to be save will, and those who aren't; well they wont.

If this is true what is the purpose of the fight? Why do ministers continue to herald the Gospel? According to your doctrine God has already predestined every persons end. Nothing that any preacher says can make a difference.

Your doctrine removes any thought of free-will in man.

Then the question must be asked: What is the purpose of "wrestling against the principalities, against powers, against rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places"?

Why then would we need to: "take unto us the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand." What is the purpose in the struggle because according to the doctrine you hold what is going to happen will happen and nothing any man can do or pray will stop it.

I can't accept that. Too many times we are told that God moves in accordance to prayer. Not only when it is His will but when the petitioner moves the heart of God. To say that Adam and Eve sinned in accordance to God's will is to say the least; disturbing. Why then did He give the "choice"? It was NOT His will that they sin but that they be obedient children choosing life rather than death; nonetheless He gave them freewill. Knowing full well that they COULD go in either direction. Therefore His eternal plan was set before the foundation of the World. If man chose the road to life so be it. If man chose the road to destruction, the plan of salvation was already in place.

Design says this is the way I have it planned, this is what I want. But what designer does not have in place an alternative should something go amiss? So God sent forth His Son to seek and to save that which was lost. He would be willing to leave the ninety and nine to find the one who was lost, lonely, cold, and misdirected. If it predestined for each individual what is the purpose of attempt to rescue the perishing?

I think the problem comes when we are too dismissive of the powers of darkness. While they are NOT capable of destroying God's will they are capable of some severe hazards along the way.

I fully agree that the rain and storms come from and are ordered by God, but I also know that it was set in the universe for a purpose. To nourish the earth NOT to destroy Job and his family. Except for the powers of darkness used the goodness of God against His creation.

Yes, emphatically I believe the Hurricane named "Katrina" was sent by God for a cleansing of the earth, that was His design; however, the powers of darkness used what was of God to attempt to cast doubt upon God the Father. Did God send it to destroy several hundreds of miles of coast line...NO the powers of darkness used what comes naturally from God, but God being God once again shows His authority and Christians from around the world arose to the occasion and because of the ministry of the Gospel many were saved as a result. Many were lost and some hardened their heart against God but each man made their own choice.

Be not deceived, God is not mocked, what man sows that is what he reaps. It is mans choice to sow good or evil seed. God provides the natural process of growth, but it is still up to man WHAT he sows. Mankind as a whole chose to sow seed of disobedience and God reacted within His design.

For what it is worth...

[oletimer]

Pastor Don that was a good post. I might add that man being the only creature that He made in His likness and image and made him a living soul. The reason being so that man could choose to serve God from a pure heart or turn Him away. The key being (to choose). The program is predestin, but the players are not, we have a choice.

[MacUser]

Ditto Pastor Don. Thanks.

[Gerald Creasy]

Despite the accolades I can not agree with all Pastor Don has expressed.

Yes, emphatically I believe the Hurricane named "Katrina" was sent by God for a cleansing of the earth, that was His design; however, the powers of darkness used what was of God to attempt to cast doubt upon God the Father. Did God send it to destroy several hundreds of miles of coast line...NO the powers of darkness used what comes naturally from God, but God being God once again shows His authority and Christians from around the world arose to the occasion and because of the ministry of the Gospel many were saved as a result. Many were lost and some hardened their heart against God but each man made their own choice.

This makes God sound like he is supsceptable to the wiles of Satan.

He plans something and then "DOH!" Satan turns around and uses Gods intentions for his own.

Poor bullied God just cant get away ....everything he tries for good is fouled up.

WHO IS THE STRONG ONE IN THAT IDEOLOGY??

The story of JOB clearly shows that Satan can do nothing unless God ALLOWS.

To claim that God has control of a hurricane but "didnt intend for it to destroy miles of coastline" is asinine.

Apparantly God intended the Coastline to have this really kicking "Fly your Kite Day" and Satan...who always is mucking things up...turned it for his purposes.

[jessea]

Why do ministers continue to herald the Gospel?

Because we are commanded to preach it, because the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation for those that are being saved. How will they know unless they hear.

For those of you who believe that God gave us free will please give some scripture to support that belief. If any one had free will it was Adam. He lost it when he disobeyed. As a result, no one has free will, we all are born into sin, all have fallen short of God's glory. I didn't have a choice in that.

I also didn't chose to follow Christ, he chose me and appointed me to fruit, fruit that will last. Outside of being "born again" I was a slave to sin, I had only one choice, to serve sin. How is that free will?

When God began calling me, he showed me my sin and my deadness next to His offer of grace and mercy, His offer for life compared to my deadness was an irresistible offer, I had no choice but to accept His free gift, he made me want it. The only thing I wanted before that was to serve sin, that is the only choice that we have outside of being "born again".

[Full Quiver]

Don makes SOME excellent points. Predestinationists cannot explain away some of the things he mentioned such as preching the Gospel, baptizing believers, healing the sick, and prayer would be an absolute waste of time if that doctrine were so.

God saw the end from the beginning, He did not plan the things that happened. Jesus' crucifixion was a fairly common occurrence of that time period. It was in no way out of the ordinary for a "criminal" to be crucified, beaten, spit upon, etc.

What God did was speak HIS WILL into the lives of men and women through the ages. Men and women who were willing to lay down their own will to please the Father and do HIS work. Had Abraham been predestined then he did not even have to consider offering his son Isaac. God used this to point to Christ though because HE knew what would happen to HIS Son here on Earth. Jesus points out free will when HE said not MY WILL but thine!

Predestinationists muddy the water and make God out to be a murderer, a rapist, and all manner of evil including an abortionists.

Speaking of abortion, according to the mentioned line of thought we Christians should not be against abortion because if we are then we come against the WILL of God. That is just sickening. Sure God has used the tragedy of countless abortions to get a hold on some people who then will become submissive to His Will but God would be far more pleased if no more babies had to die.

Remember how the children of Israel made their kids to pass through the fire? God was very angry about that. They should have looked HIM in the eye and said we didn't make them pass through the fire, YOU DID!

I'm glad my GOD is not like that!!!

God is not a control freak. HE has the ability to do what ever HE pleases and any time but HE is allowing us to run our course. In fact by doing so it proves how in control He actually is. It's much more glorious to have people, HIS creation, to willing submit to HIM than for Him to force His will upon us. In predestination their is no submission only slavery.

Why did God lead the children of Israel with a cloud by day and pillar of fire by night if they were completely controlled by Him anyhow? They would have automatically traveled straight to the promised land had he been in complete control of their entire beings. Why was God so mad when Moses smote the rock twice if HE caused Moses to do it?

Your god has a problem with excepting responsibility from what I hear from you because HE is the cause of everything both good and bad yet only wants the glory for the good and blames the bad on everyone else. Sounds like a kid to me!

[RamboPreacher]

omniscience, attribute of God's all-knowingness. this is an anthropomorphism, and not an exact description. it needs to be further clarified that God all knowing, but that is really outside of our realm of understanding. the all-knowingness that we attribute with Him is described as and being limited to understanding of what is within His creation.

God is not limited to His creation, He is outside of that creation (though condescends to engage within). this includes time, and our perception of time.

in order to have a more clear understanding of God's omniscience, we need to also know (and apply to that attribute an understanding) that there is no causal relationship with that (all-knowingness) knowledge.

another challenge is in definitions. the TULIP crowd don't NOT believe in free will. they just don't believe that we are free to choose salvation, in and of ourselves. and I agree with that paradigm. we need the Holy Spirit to lead us and guide us and convict us.

The actual difference, in my opinion, isn't the choice, but the resist-ability of God's Grace. the Armenian, says that the leading of God (the Holy Spirit) can be denied. the Calvinist, says it can not. the problem in logic is application of the ordered "predestination", which properly (in my understanding and study) translated is setting boundaries around, and not a causal relationship. That boundary/predestination can be found in John 3:16-17. "whosoever will".

If the Calvinist uses that logic, then there is no such thing as anyone not being saved. so a change in text-crawling is applied and a context that changes whosoever will being about the elect and not really "whosoever" (everyone).

[Jamais Vu]

For those of you who believe that God gave us free will please give some scripture to support that belief.

here is a rather elusive scripture that im sure most people have never heard of......

john 3:16 clearly identifies the choice of free will, that anyone can obtain this everlasting life, if they CHOOSE to.

just like the rambo preacher pointed out......you guys are talking as if YOU understand God's notion of time. you are speaking as if you can understand how God can be everywhere and know everything at the same 'time'. i think we can all agree that we as humans dont have the capacity in out minds to grasp how it all works. obviously God's notion of time is not the same as ours since God is both the beginning and the end.....he always has been.....he was not created....he does not age....and yet before we were all spoken into existence, he knew us all.

[Gerald Creasy]

here is a rather elusive scripture that im sure most people have never heard of......

john 3:16 clearly identifies the choice of free will, that anyone can obtain this everlasting life, if they CHOOSE to.

Here is one YOU are ignorant of:


1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

So which is it Jammy?

Is it by your choice?

Or is it by the Holy Ghost?

[oletimer]

jessea Posted:

Quote:
Why do ministers continue to herald the Gospel?

Because we are commanded to preach it, because the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation for those that are being saved. How will they know unless they hear.

For those of you who believe that God gave us free will please give some scripture to support that belief. If any one had free will it was Adam. He lost it when he disobeyed. As a result, no one has free will, we all are born into sin, all have fallen short of God's glory. I didn't have a choice in that.

I also didn't chose to follow Christ, he chose me and appointed me to fruit, fruit that will last. Outside of being "born again" I was a slave to sin, I had only one choice, to serve sin. How is that free will?

When God began calling me, he showed me my sin and my deadness next to His offer of grace and mercy, His offer for life compared to my deadness was an irresistible offer, I had no choice but to accept His free gift, he made me want it. The only thing I wanted before that was to serve sin, that is the only choice that we have outside of being "born again".

For those of you who believe that God gave us free will please give some scripture to support that belief

Joh 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I know that some have already quoted this verse, but note the high lighted part, "whosoever believeth in Him".

paV pas pas
including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:--all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

Mt 10:32
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

In Jesus's own words spoken here gives both the promise of salvation to whosoever will and rejection to those that reject Him. Just a few more of many of the "whosoever" listed in the bible.

Mark 8:34, Luke 14:27, 17:32, Acts 2;21 Romans 10:13 are just a few of many "whosoever" not to mention the many others verses that speak of man choosen to serve or not to serve Christ.

I also didn't chose to follow Christ, he chose me

God didn't twist your arm to make you do any thing. The Spirit may have pricked you heart, but you had to interact with God on this matter. It was your chose. You had to sumit to the will of God or salvation never happen.

I think of the verse where Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
This verse came right after the man appeared at the wedding without proper garment on. Boy what a message that could come from here, but time and space.

What ever happens on this earth happen to us all with out repect of person. I do know that prayer changes things. I know that God aloud the sea close in on Pharaoh's army, but doesn't mean that every time that something big happen that God was vengeful.

Mt 5:45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust

Soooo much more could be said but again time and space.

[Pastor Don]

Gerald;
Let me say first that the comments concerning what I believe to be truth being asinine (for clarification sake these words are a synonym to asinine: silly, stupid, foolish, unintelligent, idiotic, and dim. So which are you insinuating that I am, just one or all of them?) is to say the least insulting. While I applaud your quest for correct theology and doctrine you are a bit hypocritical in your approach. You demand from others absolute perfection according to YOUR understanding while you have been called upon time and time again to refrain from you condescending and judgmental attitude. Yet you refuse to listen to anyone; but you. I understand that you are going to treat people with the same uncaring and unloving way in which you were treated; however, that too is against Biblical reasoning. In fact Christ says that if we are cursed and even despitefully used that we are to meet that with blessing and thereby bring honor and glory unto God. If our enemy thirst we are to give him drink and if hungry we are to feed him. Nowhere in the scripture are we told to treat others AS others have treated us. And I suspect you will blow off this council as well because none of us heathen preachers here on Jude 2 can teach you anything.

As for “defense” of my asinine belief. It is far from saying “poor God look how the devil is bullying Him around.” Let’s take an example from life on a personal level. If I feel impressed of the Lord to give a “bum” $20.00 bucks for food for his children then I have been obedient and that is good. If that “bum” takes the $20.00 and buys booze and drugs then obviously that is not what I gave it to him for but he took what I intended for good and used it for his purpose. Did I get bullied…NOT at all. Nor does God become bullied because satan uses what power God has given him to try to discredit God. That is what the power of darkness is all about is casting doubt upon God and attempting to thwart His plan, but we know that he cannot be successful.

I do not believe that you can refute the fact that the devil takes what God has intended for good and misrepresents it for His own purpose. God is not being bullied and neither is His children for that matter; unless of course they choose to allow themselves to be bullied. God on the other hand cannot be bullied.

God bless...