Guilty verdict

[one love]

PastorJason, do you pastor in TCoG or is your screenname just that?

I believe He is a pastor in COGOP

[dolfan]

They are in good company.

Daniel was found guilty and put in the Lion's den.
The three Hebrew boys were found guilty and thrown in the fiery furnace.
Paul was found guilty and had his head removed.
Peter was found guilty and crucified upside down.
Our Lord, was found guiltless, and crucified anyhow.

May God grant them great grace and peace during their hour of tribulation.

May the Court grant them 25 years in lockup. They killed their child. God had nothing to do with it.

Look, if you want to withhold from yourself any medical care because you believe that God will heal you and that you lack some faith for not trusting him to do that if you see doctor --- go for it.

The Bible says that a man who will not provide for his own family is worse than an infidel. I don't mean providing what is beyond our means to do so. We can't do what we can't do. But, that's not the issue in this case. These people could have gone to the doctor. They could have had her diabetes treated. Diabetes is seldom fatal and is very treatable. We all know someone who has diabetes, and probably know some children with juvenile diabetes. Simple refusal to get care is a simple refusal to provide a treatment for an illness, and that simple refusal, when it results in foreseeable death, is a reckless killing if not worse. Justice demands that these people go to jail for their daughter's death. If you want to give them some elevated status as believers, go ahead. We'll agree to disagree. But, if you want the rest of us who do believe in Christ to lay off of them for their actions, here's a quarter. This is inexcusable. Forgiveable? Sure, because God is that great. But, there are consequences to our actions that we can't escape just because God forgives our sins. These people are about to learn that in spades. It is a shame, though. Their daughter had to pay for their sins with her life.

[n2jesus]

The Bible says that a man who will not provide for his own family is worse than an infidel. I don't mean providing what is beyond our means to do so. We can't do what we can't do. But, that's not the issue in this case. These people could have gone to the doctor. They could have had her diabetes treated. Diabetes is seldom fatal and is very treatable. We all know someone who has diabetes, and probably know some children with juvenile diabetes. Simple refusal to get care is a simple refusal to provide a treatment for an illness, and that simple refusal, when it results in foreseeable death, is a reckless killing if not worse. Justice demands that these people go to jail for their daughter's death. If you want to give them some elevated status as believers, go ahead. We'll agree to disagree. But, if you want the rest of us who do believe in Christ to lay off of them for their actions, here's a quarter. This is inexcusable. Forgiveable? Sure, because God is that great. But, there are consequences to our actions that we can't escape just because God forgives our sins. These people are about to learn that in spades. It is a shame, though. Their daughter had to pay for their sins with her life.

Dolfan you are great with words! And this is an awesome commentary!

[pastorjason]

PastorJason, do you pastor in TCoG or is your screenname just that?

I believe He is a pastor in COGOP

Correct Though I am the true voice of Truth if anyone really wants to know the answer to life's questions

[one love]

PastorJason, do you pastor in TCoG or is your screenname just that?

I believe He is a pastor in COGOP

Correct Though I am the true voice of Truth if anyone really wants to know the answer to life's questions

[Full Quiver]

Correct Though I am the true voice of Truth if anyone really wants to know the answer to life's questions Laughing Cool

Careful folks, Jesus has entered the room.


Dolfan, you are spot on but do be careful because you will be labeled as malicious and many other things because these folks are "Christian" and us Christians got to stick together even if some are willing that you die if you choke on a pretzel.

[dolfan]

Well, to be honest, I can see where someone would say that about me. Here's what I mean by that. I said I hope the parents of the baby in NM would go to jail. Then, I made a broader point about how their decision making, and those others who would do anything like they did, is all wrong in every sense of the word "wrong". And, then, as I recall, I learned that maybe something else was responsible for the baby's death and that it might have been inevitable so that, even had the parents and spectators done what responsible Christian people do in that situation, it would not have changed the outcome. I still don't know exactly what caused the baby's death --- would prompt medical care have saved its life or even prolonged it for a day or two? I don't know. The authorities are not saying yet, at least according to the articles you've posted. So, I've had to smack on a taste of crow about that.

Now, if the authorities conclude that medical help would've most likely kept that baby alive, then my original rant about it will have been justified. But, for now, while I stand by the principles of what I said and I don't back down a bit, I can't really accurately say that those principles applied in this situation. For those who already knew before I spouted off that this possibility exists that the baby would've died WITH medical care, I can see where what I did seemed malicious. In fact, I don't know that they could see it any other way because when you are convinced --- and with good reason at the time --- that one thing is a certain way and then someone pops up with all kinds of not-so-well wishes for someone based on a belief that things are another way, that seems spiteful.

In the end, it may be that I was right and they weren't about the facts. Then, I'll be happy to press my point. And, when we take this same issue and apply it to the girl who died of diabetes, I have said and stand by my opinion that the parents deserve, legally, to go to jail, and I think morally and biblically it is the correct outcome. I just don't know for sure if that's the case with the baby in NM yet. I do want you to keep us up to date on whatever is published though. I'm very interested in this topic for a lot of reasons --- philosophy of law, etc.

[one love]

FQ I have a off the wall question. Let me add I am not asking to trick ya or slam you in any way ( I am sure you know that but thought i would add that anyway)

You said that you had delivered your first 3 children at home and did not believe in Doctors. As you know I told you that I had not realized that you believed that way in the past until this story came out. Had one of your children have died in the same manner, looking back do you feel you should still be in prison?

Again I am trying to make sense of this from ALL sides, not to be disrespectful.


I am not defending the home birth with NO medical help thought either. I just may NEVER understand that at all. Since you have been there I am curious based on your beliefs now.

It blows my mind still...

[n2jesus]

No one knows what our family went through over this stuff we are talking about right here...It splintered our "Christian" family apart...I grew up in the COGOP and never knew about this degree of belief in non medicine till Danny got back from BTI the year he went...Wendy is just now being able to talk to me about it...She felt she would die and go to hell if she or her children went to the Dr...She told me her and Danny had signed off on no medical care for them or their children in case of an emergency, even if it meant death...No one knows the untold worry and concern for the welfare of all of them during the 7/8 years they held to this belief... And if they passed out in front of me, I would have called 911...Thank God our prayers kept them from the horror others are now facing...And I don't want to hurt or offend anyone, but if one of my innocent grandchildren had of died at the hands of Danny/Wendy sticking to withholding care available to them, I would have fought tooth and nail for them to bear the consequences of those decisions...I would have loved them, prayed for them, forgiven them, and I would have also stood for them bearing the legal ramifications of those negligent decisions....If your child ask a fish, you going to give them a stone, ye being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good unto his children...It's sooooo foreign to me to watch children suffer if you can do something about it....Now with the world shaping up the direction it's going, we may all be having no other choice but to do without medical care, but until then, I will seek God and all the help he will allow me the knowledge to know about...

[one love]

No one knows what our family went through over this stuff we are talking about right here...It splintered our "Christian" family apart...I grew up in the COGOP and never knew about this degree of belief in non medicine till Danny got back from BTI the year he went...Wendy is just now being able to talk to me about it...She felt she would die and go to hell if she or her children went to the Dr...She told me her and Danny had signed off on no medical care for them or their children in case of an emergency, even if it meant death...No one knows the untold worry and concern for the welfare of all of them during the 7/8 years they held to this belief... And if they passed out in front of me, I would have called 911...Thank God our prayers kept them from the horror others are now facing...And I don't want to hurt or offend anyone, but if one of my innocent grandchildren had of died at the hands of Danny/Wendy sticking to withholding care available to them, I would have fought tooth and nail for them to bear the consequences of those decisions...I would have loved them, prayed for them, forgiven them, and I would have also stood for them bearing the legal ramifications of those negligent decisions....If your child ask a fish, you going to give them a stone, ye being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good unto his children...It's sooooo foreign to me to watch children suffer if you can do something about it....Now with the world shaping up the direction it's going, we may all be having no other choice but to do without medical care, but until then, I will seek God and all the help he will allow me the knowledge to know about...

Sis If this question brings up to much personal feelings for you or FQ/Wen I am glad to delete the question. I hope it has not caused any hurt. I guess I am trying to understand " that" position of "NO doc's" and get someones perspective that used to believe that way but does not any longer.
FQ I guess do you have sympathy for them because that could have happened to you? Or does this upset you even more because it could have happened to you? Hope that helps a little. Again I will gladly retract the question if any of ya desire.

I do not really understand the mindset behind no doc's because most of our everyday lives are helped to due the knowledge that has medical/science has provided. Even in the most simplest ways.

I do respect anyone who believes in not going to the doctor and do not condemn them at all. Unless..... it is preached as church doctrine or if it involves another party that has no choice. I do fear that the government ending ones choice on this could be a bad move for Christians on many other issues they would love to ban....

I love TCOG but there are many things that are simply not TCOG doctrine that some do preach and that gives others a false impression of our true teachings.
FQ is correct regarding A.J. Tomlinson, I even remember he did not think we should even have insurance.


God Bless

[Full Quiver]

Kevin, we can discuss it for sure especially if it helps others. We had make shift wills in place in case of death. Whether they would have ever held up in court or not is a different question. Honestly, I thought Wen was going to die when the third home birth took place. I was very afraid. If I went to jail over such then surely I would have deserved it. Would I have thought so at the time? Of course not due to SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS and brother you've read their blogs, emails, heard the testimonies.... they are filled with SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Smith is covering his tracks with last years Assembly ruling, how convenient. I dare anyone ask him how many of his grand kids were born in a hospital. How many have ever been to a doctor. How many of his own children have ever been to a doctor. See he denied his children medical care their entire life and now he supports them as they deny their children, his grandchildren (and there are lots of them), medical care. They call it faith, holiness, righteousness, and trust but is it really? Maybe so but you are taking away a right of another to care for your own SELF-RIGHTEOUS beliefs. That smacks of bad stuff.