Judgement Question?

[Preaching-Mason]

My thoughts on this would be.....

I just cant see , Me as A Pastor going half naked in front of my youth, or church for that matter.......I guess to me it isnt so much the sensual part of it, but the fact that I dont think people would look at me the same, and I dont think , a teenage boy will ever look at his female youth leader the same , after he has
seen her in a bathing suit


I do go swimming, and I work without my shirt all the time, but not in front of the people I serve as a leader.... My wife loves to swim , and has served as a youth leader all her life , just about....We went swimming when we were first married and some of her youth showed up at the pool , and the conviction she felt over that was so great that she would never do it again. At that time I didnt understand why she felt like that, but NOW I do.

I just cant imagine, my church , being use to seeing me in my dress clothes, and then when I get up to preach , they have the mental image of me in my swimwear.


I guess when I asked this question , it wasnt so much the part of boys swimming with girls, but the boys and girls swimming with their appointed leaders.


Also most teens are in puberty , and if some of them , male or female are really struggling with lust , how can they come to the leader they have seen half naked , and are now lusting after for councill....to me it JUST wouldnt seem to work. To me I guess the biggest thing would be the loss of respect ....

and the supervising thing.....how does a person go about supervising a childs mind? How would a leader go about stopping a kid from starring at them , and stopping the thoughts that will follow?

Yes I know , kids are going to have those thought anyway, to me though, we dont have to help them out with their thoughts, by showing them our half naked bodies.....and to me as a leader that would seem to make their struggle ( lust) harder for them ....." now not only do they have the struggle with the lust and all the hormones and changes to deal with, but the person thats suppose to be helping them has become their biggest source of lust LOL


of course this is just my opinion...this thread has some really good , posts in it....good stuff....good stuff

[ImaPK]

I've been around COGOP all my life and since I was six until the age of eighteen I lived with the fact that my father was a minister in COGOP...with that being said let me say this, I always found it hypocritical that alot of the same members that made their kids swim 100 yards apart with kids of their own sex after a baptismal service at the river would allow those same kids to go swimming at a public pool at the local park...at Youth Camp we had seperate swimming and did it stop any Camp romances?...NO...to paraphrase what someone else said if kids want to be "together" they will find a way

[MyLisa]

As a new poster I will keep this short and to the point

I am 22, and have been a part of the youth leadership since I was 16. With the combined roll of "leader" and still being an actual youth this is my thoughts....

A teenage is going to find a way to do what they want. So when it comes to swimming, my thought is better to have them surrounded by fellow youth that love God as much as they do than to have them surrounded in a secular setting (public) surrounded by wo/men that do not know God.

The question regarding the leadership swimming with the youth... that is up in the air with me. As a part of our youth group's "leadership" I would NOT swim with them... but that is more out of I don't own a swimming suite because I don't like to swim! I think that depending on the size of group you have it should be up to the parents of the youth. Make it known before the outing... is there a suite standard (ie: girls in 1 piece suites, boys with shirts on, etc), will the leadership be swimming with the youth, etc etc etc... and let the parents decide.

Alot of this type of topic depends on the youth, the youths parents, the youth leaders and the relationships that has formed between each.

That is just my 2 cents!

MyLisa
(RamboPreachers daughter)

[Steve]

:D I've been around COGOP all my life and since I was six until the age of eighteen I lived with the fact that my father was a minister in COGOP...with that being said let me say this, I always found it hypocritical that a lot of the same members that made their kids swim 100 yards apart with kids of their own sex after a baptismal service at the river would allow those same kids to go swimming at a public pool at the local park...at Youth Camp we had separate swimming and did it stop any Camp romances?...NO...to paraphrase what someone else said if kids want to be "together" they will find a way

But to me, PK, that is the same argument of "well, their gonna have sex anyway so just distribute condoms". You don't have to empower them just because they are going to do it. The same holds for the legalizing pot and prostitution argument. America has not legalized these things because not doing so will decrease the activity, but because they want to send a moral message ABOUT the activity.

I think especially as a leader you have a responsibility. A teenage boy may do "things" thinking about a female leader anyway, but as Mason said, if you give them even MORE than they had to think about are you helping them or hurting them? This is just my opinion.

I agree with MyLisa. Every parent has to make a decision about this and let the chips fall where they may. A lot of folks here would probably say now that we have liberty where alcohol is concerned. The bible only speaks of not being drunk, right? So then do we take our drinking age young folks out for a drink after church? I am quite sure that some churches would have no problem with that. (And I am not talking about YOUR churches, but Catholic and the like)

Everyone has a line. Mine just happens to be WAY before others. Is this bad or wrong? Only God knows, and I believe He will reveal to each of us His heart sooner or later. Like I said before, I can't judge you. Only God does that.

[ImaPK]

Steve said

But to me, PK, that is the same argument of "well, their gonna have sex anyway so just distribute condoms". You don't have to empower them just because they are going to do it. The same holds for the legalizing pot and prostitution argument. America has not legalized these things because not doing so will decrease the activity, but because they want to send a moral message ABOUT the activity.

So where do you draw the line about morality?...Here's an example(and dbsrv's wife will back me on this one)...California Youth Camp...seperate swimming...California Youth Camp...last night banquet, most everyone paired up...California Youth Camp...after banquet entire camp goes on a night hike...California Youth Camp...after walking for a ways everyone is told to stop...California Youth Camp...director says at the count of three all of the flashlights are to be turned off...California Youth Camp... you could hear the "smacking" all over the place...California Youth Camp...after 15-20 seconds director says to turn the flashlights back on...California Youth Camp...lots of kids pulling apart...California Youth Camp...walk a ways and repeat...California Youth Camp...moral, "You can't swim with em, but you can make out with em, but only in the "proper" setting"...and the director had the job for several years and this happened every year I went to CYC(12-16)...the hypocrisy is the thing I have a problem with...if two church kids are dating it's fine for them to go out after church for a coke when one of them has a car, but heaven forbid if they swim together?...gimme a break ...I've had more "fun" one on one going and getting a coke then I ever had in a pool FULL of kids(and we had on more then the kids in the pool too).

[Steve]

So where do you draw the line about morality?...

The parents must. For their own kids. They must search the scriptures and see what they find about this. That is one thing that has not been mentioned in all of this. What does the Word say about it? I don't presume to tell you. All have equal access to the scriptures. Maybe do a word study on "modesty" or something. Maybe what is said is relevant to us, maybe not. You decide for yourself. I already have.

Here's an example(and dbsrv's wife will back me on this one)...California Youth Camp...

I would have instructed my kids not to participate and trust they would not. If they felt uncomfortable, I wouldn't let them go.

moral, "You can't swim with em, but you can make out with em, but only in the "proper" setting"

And in my opinion, (and I know I will get slammed for THIS one) that should be in marriage. Both the seeing of a mostly naked person of the opposite sex and making out. I have rejected the "dating" scene that I grew up with, and am encouraging my kids to only look for a mate when they are ready to be married. I think there has been WAY too much giving of our bodies and hearts to those who only want to...

[have] more "fun" one on one going and getting a coke

My kids may accept my reasoning on this one, or they may reject it. It will be their decision, but they will know why I believe this way. I will share with them the heartache that I felt as a teen, and the things that still can invade my mind because I did things I shouldn't have. Only time will tell. I can't live their life for them, and don't intend to, but they will be informed about it all. BOTH sides of the issue.

...and the director had the job for several years and this happened every year I went to CYC(12-16)...the hypocrisy is the thing I have a problem with...

I absoutely and completely agree with you. That is why I guard what I allow my child to experience where these types of things are going on. It is not the director's job to expose my child to this. Like I said, make your own choices about this. I have chosen a different path on many things in my life. More than I would have imagined, but then, I always was a bit out of the norm!

[ImaPK]

Please Steve, understand I'm not slamming your stand...in fact I commend you for it...you sound somewhat like my dad...he always told us, "I'm not trying to teach you what to think, I'm trying to teach you how to think."...you're right to lay all the cards on the table and in the end let them decide...if you try to "force-feed" a kid, most often they will rebel.

[Annamae35]

Steve:
You sound like an "old fashion" man! I agree with you 100%. I did not have any daughters, but if I did (putting aside the fact that I am an "old Fashion" christian) I as her mother would not buy for her a bathing suit that reveals parts of her body that is reserved only for her husband to see!
God Bless You

Annamae

[Steve]

Thanks, PK. No offense taken. I just wanted to clairify by position. Your dad was a class act by the way.

[Steve]

Steve:
You sound like an "old fashion" man!

Guilty. REALLY guilty! Actually, I'm a fuddy-duddy. Just ask Mr. Danger!

[Pastor Bill]

Now maybe I am just out of touch, but when I see girls in our church with their hands on their boyfriends thigh, wearing a top that shows mucho cleavage AND a bellybutton, wearing a tight miniskirt and whatever, I cringe to think what would go on if there were only square inches of fabric seperating them. Don't tell me that couples don't pair up and sneak off in those environments because, much to my shame and dismay, I did the same thing when I was that age!

Right there's the problem, rather than cringe, why aren't we dealing with the issues? Avoiding those issues won't make them go away. If you are seeing the girls in your youth showing up and acting inappropriately, then that's an issue that should be dealt with. I don't see that in my church, they don't dress to my taste, but they are not showing up half naked and hanging all over each other either. Are they sneaking off and doing things, not during services, they sit in the front couple rows, and are an active part of our services. Do things happen at home, or when they are away from church, well probably nothing different than anyone else's kids, some will fall to temptation, others will stand strong. If I had to guess which ones stood strong, I'd feel more comfortable with those that had been taught openly than those who had been schooled by avoiding the issues.

You have to make choices for your family, and you know what your kids can handle, so if that's the way you want to deal with it, go ahead, but I can't do that with mine.

I also don't know your youth leaders, or how they handle the kids or these issues, most churches don't have the leaders I do.

[Pastor Bill]

Preaching-Mason

I guess my thoughts are if you really feel it is wrong to do infront of your churchmembers, or the kids in the youth, then what makes it right to do in front of anyone else? Do you only minister to those whose names are on the books? or do you allow God to use you even outside of the church?

I would guess that you do, and so to follow that conclusion out, wouldn't that make you a spiritual leader even at work, or anytime?

It may just be that I doubt anyone from my church is going to get lustful feelings looking at me (I ain't that pretty) and I also have enough respect for people that I don't assume that is the only thing on their minds.

If there started to be a problem, then you deal with the situation at hand, but I don't think such strict guidelines are needed.

[Pastor Bill]

Steve:
You sound like an "old fashion" man! I agree with you 100%. I did not have any daughters, but if I did (putting aside the fact that I am an "old Fashion" christian) I as her mother would not buy for her a bathing suit that reveals parts of her body that is reserved only for her husband to see!
God Bless You

Annamae

Neither would I, but the question was would you allow her to wear an appropriate bathing suit and go swimming in a public or private setting where members of the opposite sex would be around?

[Poimen]

IMO a bathing suit reveals and accentuates parts of the anatomy that should not be seen by members of the opposite sex except your spouse.

It is irresponsible to allow your youth, or to go yourself, that way in public. I feel it aligns itself with the "such like" of the works of the flesh, etc. -- where various sexual sins are referenced (i.e wantoness, lasciviousness, etc.) which all had to do with appearance and display of the body as much as lust and sexual ends. I'm not saying the person wearing a bathing suit is lusting or desiring sex. I'm saying that it tends to excite and accentuate those desires. And it is unhealthy and irresponsible to claim to be training your youth by putting them in a situation that will be prone to excite the fleshly nature.

It is for those same reasons that I will not allow my girls to go scantly clad in public or to run around in front of visitors in just their underclothes. I want them to have more respect than that -- and I want them to act responsibly.

Yes. I have to act responsibly, keep my eyes, and resist temptation, which is everywhere. But -- that does not mean I should not also teach my youth to act responsibly for others either.

I prefer to teach my youth how to respond to sin and wordliness, temptation etc. by avoiding and resisting it, and living in a way that does not invite it. That's how I was taught and it worked.

I cannot see any good in mixed swimming where common bathing suits are worn because of that. Now, the wholesome swim wear -- I think I could live with that.

These are my honest feelings and are not meant to be offensive or personal towards anyone.

[MrDanger]

It is irresponsible to allow your youth, or to go yourself, that way in public.

Are you saying that it is irresponsible to allow your youth or yourself to go to the beach in Florida/Alabama, etc.?