Is it a SIN???

[Brian]

I'll keep the sinless son of God. You can have the wine-bibbing homie.

Kevin, it's only a good job if there is something wrong with being a wine bibbing homie!!

(just yanking your chain Chris)

[Russell Roberts]

Pastor BPS and One Love.

If moderate consumption of alcohol violates your conscience, I highly recommend that you avoid it. You are doing what you believe is pleasing to God and I commend you for it.

An argument to attempt to prove from scripture, however, that moderate consumption is sinful in anyway lacks intellectual honesty. Scriptures have to be wrenched out of context, all kinds of gyrations have to be made about the nature of wine in biblical times. The argument against it simply lacks integrity.

How could one teach Romans 14 without understanding that sin is sometimes subjective? To some people it would be sinful to drink, to others it isn't. But a REASONABLE argument cannot be made that there is anything wrong with moderate consumption.

One of the problems hat plagues modern day Christianity is that we have largely bought into a platonic worldview which views 'spiritual' things as good and various material things as evil. Wine is simply one example. But that's another argument for another day.

[one love]

Pastor BPS and One Love.

If moderate consumption of alcohol violates your conscience, I highly recommend that you avoid it. You are doing what you believe is pleasing to God and I commend you for it.

An argument to attempt to prove from scripture, however, that moderate consumption is sinful in anyway lacks intellectual honesty. Scriptures have to be wrenched out of context, all kinds of gyrations have to be made about the nature of wine in biblical times. The argument against it simply lacks integrity.

How could one teach Romans 14 without understanding that sin is sometimes subjective? To some people it would be sinful to drink, to others it isn't. But a REASONABLE argument cannot be made that there is anything wrong with moderate consumption.

One of the problems hat plagues modern day Christianity is that we have largely bought into a platonic worldview which views 'spiritual' things as good and various material things as evil. Wine is simply one example. But that's another argument for another day.

YES I believe it is wrong to drink any alcohol, yet that is not the point poimen made, neither did I. Point is if they were DRUNK and Christ helped to make them MORE drunk he is the cause for their sin! The bible Plainly states being a drunk/drunkard is a sin. Which would make christ a false prophet.

Brian your analogy is flawed though was cute Poimen stated a more accurate one. If christ took marijuana and distributed it out to smoked, with the intent of them smoking it then the analogy stands. Would christ have done such a thing? Is there a question there?
He also created poppy plants are we going to condone moderation use of heroin if it becomes legal? same concept they just had not made heroin yet then.

Russell I enjoy your controversial post but this is your favorite and I can not understand why. You seem to take joy in talking about having liberty to drink which DESTROYS and KILLS many families everyday. Is that what churches should be about? Should churches now talk and promote things in that manner? hmmm

[Jennifer Smith]

Russell I enjoy your controversial post but this is your favorite and I can not understand why. You seem to take joy in talking about having liberty to drink which DESTROYS and KILLS many families everyday. Is that what churches should be about? Should churches now talk and promote things in that manner? hmmm

May be he just enjoys the debate? If so, what is the point of the conversation?

[Russell Roberts]

Onelove,

Are you aware that until very recently the Church did not embrace the position you advocate? It is a very recent phenomena that began with prohibition. Historically, the Church has had absolutely no problem with moderate consumption. Part of Martin Luther's salary was paid in BEER! Not that I'm a big Martin Luther fan.

What bothers me is that Christianity in the United States has bought into a Platonic view of reality. Those who have departed from a biblical view of creation and have embraced a Platonic view of reality, ironically use that view to condemn those who remain rooted firmly within orthodoxy. How sad.

[dawgs10]

the whole issue with me is the scripture used to justify sin. even when brought face to face with much more commentary and versions of the scripture that interprets it totally different. when faced with overwhelming evidence you mind is not changed about john 2. o well.

[Russell Roberts]

Jennifer, I do enjoy debate but not solely for the sake of debate. It helps sharpen my skills and forces me to think through my arguments. Sometimes, people overthrow my argument and change my worldview. Sometimes, the opposite occurs. This probably though, has resulted in too many hard feelings for it to be worth it. But it is, occasionally, fun.

[Russell Roberts]

Dawgs, your presupposition is that moderate consumption is sin. You are allowing your own worldview to guide your interpretation rather than allowing scripture to inform your worldview. So, I'm not trying to justify sin. I am stating in no uncertain terms that to contend that moderate consumption of alcohol is sinful (without qualification), is sinful itself. In condemning something not condemned in scripture, you are sinning.

Unless, of course, God was advocating sin in Deuteronomy 14.

[beckrl]

Pastor BPS and One Love.

If moderate consumption of alcohol violates your conscience, I highly recommend that you avoid it. You are doing what you believe is pleasing to God and I commend you for it.

An argument to attempt to prove from scripture, however, that moderate consumption is sinful in anyway lacks intellectual honesty. Scriptures have to be wrenched out of context, all kinds of gyrations have to be made about the nature of wine in biblical times. The argument against it simply lacks integrity.

How could one teach Romans 14 without understanding that sin is sometimes subjective? To some people it would be sinful to drink, to others it isn't. But a REASONABLE argument cannot be made that there is anything wrong with moderate consumption.

One of the problems hat plagues modern day Christianity is that we have largely bought into a platonic worldview which views 'spiritual' things as good and various material things as evil. Wine is simply one example. But that's another argument for another day.

Russell
Would it not be in the same sence to offend one that by their faith has said that to eat meat or drink wine is sin. Yes, to them would be sin, but it may be pure to you. But should we offend our brother. Is'nt that the principle that Paul is telling his brother to show in love.

Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations

I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Paul said if it was to the weaker brother sin do eat meat or drink wine, then one should not eat or drink nor any think whereby maketh thy brother to stumbleth or offend, or make weak.

In other words if you have in faith the liberty to eat or drink, then don't dispute that with your weaker brother to the point that they become offended or if you drink in front of them that they become weak and also drink in which that would to them become sin.

There is nothing that isn't pure, for what goeth into the mouth don't defile but that which cometh out of the mouth that defile.

But we should remain sober for no drunkard shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul also told the church not to keep company, if any man call himself a brother but be a drunkard.

Now if this be the case those that where well drunk, would then Jesus be adding to their drunkeness?

[one love]

Are you aware that until very recently the Church did not embrace the position you advocate? It is a very recent phenomena that began with prohibition. Historically, the Church has had absolutely no problem with moderate consumption. Part of Martin Luther's salary was paid in BEER! Not that I'm a big Martin Luther fan.

Sure i am .. I am also aware that for a VERY long time you had to be catholic and doing otherwise could cause you to be burned at the stake so I am not really seeing the point.

What bothers me is that Christianity in the United States has bought into a Platonic view of reality. Those who have departed from a biblical view of creation and have embraced a Platonic view of reality, ironically use that view to condemn those who remain rooted firmly within orthodoxy. How sad.

What bothers me is you seem to belittle anyone that does not hold the view you do and give no real definitive response to back up your belief. You can not prove a point by saying

An argument to attempt to prove from scripture, however, that moderate consumption is sinful in anyway lacks intellectual honesty.

However the same could be said about you claiming that Christ did a miracle to help people be drunkards which is forbidden in the word. You have drawn out the "NO alcohol belief" that some of us hold to, not us. We simply responded to your view. I am saying that if JESUS made them DRUNK it contradicts the BIBLE and you can not prove that to be otherwise. If you believe he made them drunk how do you defend the contradiction?
I am not condemning you for a moderation drink, though I feel it is wrong.
God bless Ya Bro

[Russell Roberts]

Well, I do want to apologize to Christopher Hart. My response to him was a little over the top. Poimen, I'm sorry brother, will you forgive me?

My position on the subject remains the same. There is absolutely no support for maintaining the idea that moderate consumption is sinful, whatever harmful results may come.

Is it sinful to be a drunkard? Yes, it is. A lot of heartache results from people who can't drink in moderation. It is a shame. Does that make alcohol evil? Not hardly. Neither alcohol nor sex are evil. What is evil is to allow them to lead to dehumanizing behavior.

[Shellie]

Neither alcohol nor sex are evil.

No, but I'm pretty sure that when you mix the two, it gets evil pretty quick.

[Russell Roberts]

Neither alcohol nor sex are evil.

No, but I'm pretty sure that when you mix the two, it gets evil pretty quick.

[Poimen]

Well, I do want to apologize to Christopher Hart. My response to him was a little over the top. Poimen, I'm sorry brother, will you forgive me?

No worries brother. I know what it is to be passionate about something, and I know your apology is sincere despite our disagreement. So, like I said, no worries.

[Russell Roberts]

Thanks Christopher. Bless you. And you are right, my apology was heartfelt and sincere. I love you brother.