Finance comm. report response

[pastorjason]

My friend Ron Martin, Mountie12 has written this response I am not adept enough to link it so I put it here sorry for the length.

Report of the Finance and Stewardship Committee to the 95th International General Assembly

Questions

To: The International Finance and Stewardship Committee

In regards to your Final Report, I would like to pose some specific questions to you for clarification purposes. In the section on page 4 of the report entitled, Fiscal Responsibility, the opening sentence begins with a rather ambiguous statement that says, “Some ministers are not tithing faithfully and honestly.” Do you know the percentage or ratio of “some ministers,” or is this just a general assumption in an effort to pass a binding ruling? Is the percentage of “some ministers” 5%, 10%, 20%, 50% or even 90% of all the licensed ministers in the Church of God of Prophecy? What equation did you use to determine the ratio of “some ministers.”

It seems that you have taken a “Shotgun” approach (i.e. hitting a few by blasting everyone) toward implementing a procedure of corrective measures. However, the Assembly has already implemented procedures for addressing this issue (94th AM/PM, B. Tithing by Ministers, p. 394), why do you feel that it is necessary to expand it through further binding regulatory legislation?

The second question concerns the statement in paragraph two – “We furthermore appeal to all ministers to take only legitimate expenses per assembly guidelines (94th AM/PM, A. Guidelines for Ministerial Expense, pp. 392, 393) and not to practice the reduction of their tithes via creative means.” The general assembly has already determined that the individual minister, ALONE, must determine between living expense and ministerial expense (94th AM/PM, A. Guidelines for Ministerial Expense, pp. 392). It also states, in the same section that, These guidelines are not meant to be all inclusive, but to serve as markers that guide the individual conscience and one’s desire to worship the Lord through tithing and giving (94th AM/PM, A. Guidelines for Ministerial Expense, pp. 393). Has the committee taken into account the fact that “some ministers” will ultimately have to invest considerable sums of their own personal income into the day-to-day operation of the local church? The average monthly income for the churches in my state is $2500 to $3000 per month (January 2008 Statistics). The pastor, alone, bears the burden of making sure that there are enough resources to provide for utilities, maintenance and ministries of the local church. That is why we are such experts at chicken dinners, donut sales and car washes. The local church cannot survive or support institutional ministries (missions, church ministries support offerings, etc.) without the use of additional fund raisers. Whether he/she is bi-vocational or full-time, a Church of God of Prophecy pastor will ultimately pay for the privilege of pastoring the local church. Since there are no specific guidelines listed in the assembly minutes, other than a few suggestions of what is and is not ministerial expenses, how can the committee truly determine that “some ministers” are not tithing and giving above and beyond the call of duty?

The third question involves the “exercise” of “instructive or corrective actions” against “some ministers” that are not tithing properly. When did the God surrender His sovereignty over individual consciences to the supervisory regulations of men? The question from this report is not whether “some ministers” are following the direction of the Holy Spirit in worship and giving, but rather, whether the amount of tithing and giving by “some ministers” is acceptable to those in supervisory positions. Is the committee suggesting that if the minister in question is not meeting acceptable standards of giving, he/she will be subjected to an inquisitional tribunal to determine his/her spirituality? This opens up the potential for a Pandora’s box full of abuse by leadership who may try to squeeze out more water from an already empty well.

The fourth question that I would like to pose to the committee is whether they believe that pastors should practice the same procedures when dealing with the personal tithing and giving practices of local church members? Do you think it is prudent to list the names, amounts and tithing habits of each individual member in the Sunday bulletin of the local church, or perhaps, post it on the bulletin to ensure that each member maintains a good level of spirituality through tithing and giving? Surely, if the ministry is going to be held such a high level of institutional observation, the laity should receive the same kind of care and concern?
It is has never been my practice as a pastor to keep track of the individuals paying tithes or the amount of the contributions being received. I have found that LOVE not LEGISLATION causes people to respond to giving liberally. I am somewhat amazed that the committee has such spiritual insight that they are able to determine a minister’s spirituality by the amount of tithes they contribute (i.e “Not tithing is essentially indicative of a spiritual problem).

After 41 years of membership in the Church of God of Prophecy, I am still taken back by the insulting manner in which pastors are treated. We have become the reason that churches rise or fall, and are often caught between leadership and laity who seek to lay blame for the church’s ineffectiveness at someone’s doorstep. If you want complete transparency in tithing by minister’s may I suggest that you recommend that minister’s pay tithes to their local churches. The local church is the source of all ministerial income (as listed in the flowchart). Why not have the pastor pay tithes to the local church and make him accountable to those who provide his income? The local church could pay tithes to the state office, the state office could then pay tithes to the national/international office. It would then, truly, be a tithe to “those over us,” and not an institutional levy.

Sincerely,
Ron Martin
Pastor


[b]

[free]

Good questions! I wonder what the response will be?

[pastorjason]

Though it is doubtful that with the proxy system that the churches overseas thatt are not effected by this wii be apposed to this I think it stinks myself

[dawgs10]

it is hard for to believe that we can disagree with a binding statement that says ALL ministers must tithe and should be honest turning in ministry expense. we must look at the big picture.

[pastorjason]

it is hard for to believe that we can disagree with a binding statement that says ALL ministers must tithe and should be honest turning in ministry expense. we must look at the big picture.

That is not what this statement says
it stipulates control to the state presbyter to review your expenses to decide for you what is or is not your appropriate amount of tithe
this is not an encouragement but legislation that dictates for you to do what is between you and God.
It judges spirituality based on your compliance with an arbitrary figure of giving

Jason

[Pastor Gary]

This proposal, IMHO, stinks. It reduces tithing to a legalistic, calculator, spreadsheet practice that will constitute a mandatory professional tax instead of heart-based blessing.

A huge step in the wrong direction, and another layer of beaurocratic control.

[paul]

0I read the letter posted above to the finance committee. My comment will be in reference to the situation and not about cogop's procedures, right or wrong.

Every pastor on this forum knows very well, that if all the people in his/her church tithed regularly, faithfully, their would be a considerable increase of income to operate the local church on. The overall giving in the American church is about 1.8%

There are always going to be those, inor out of ministry that choose to do what they feel best for themselves. no amount of regulations will change them and if forced they will always find another method of getting around it. Because as PG stated and others, it is a matter of the heart.

For an organization ( any) when finances are falling, drying up or insufficient. To me, trying to figure out how to get everyone to do more generally does not work. Usually the only thing that happens is you ailinate the good people and those who are not carring their load continue in the same mode.

Rather it is much more productive to examine how the church or organization to produce growth, bottom line, with what it has by being more efficient and focusing in on program and methods that are really working and getting rid of those that don't. This is never easy, because people hold sacred some old things that just arn't working.

[Mat]

removed

[dawgs10]

big picture is that ordained minister in cogop are not paying tithes. and they are running up expense reports. seems to me it only effects people that are not follow the outline in cogop about tithing for ministers. yes pastor gary it does seem legalistic but if all the ministers in the state of georgia was paying tithes to the state like they are supposed to then the camp groud and state level positions such as a state youth minister would not have to be supported so much by love offerings and a small amount of churchs that give a lot to these areas. sorry, i agree with you that it seems that it should be from the heart but if the heart is not right then should these people be ordained? should they be ministering if they cant give from their heart. maybe this document is not the answer but this is a very serious issue and it needs to be looked at.

[KBevangelist]

but if all the ministers in the state of georgia was paying tithes to the state like they are supposed to then the camp groud and state level positions such as a state youth minister would not have to be supported so much by love offerings and a small amount of churchs that give a lot to these areas. sorry,.

Can you back that up with factual evidence?

KB

[dawgs10]

i dont have the numbers in my file cabinet but i do know that is a well known concern in this state and i am sure many more.

[jdavis]

It seems that you have taken a “Shotgun” approach (i.e. hitting a few by blasting everyone) toward implementing a procedure of corrective measures. However, the Assembly has already implemented procedures for addressing this issue (94th AM/PM, B. Tithing by Ministers, p. 394), why do you feel that it is necessary to expand it through further binding regulatory legislation?

I really don't understand why the State/Regional Overseers cannot deal with this on a case by case basis. Why not a private sit down between Overseer and Pastor. After all doesn't the Bible say that the first step toward reconciling an offender is one on one. In some cases it may be a misunderstanding or lack of communication such as the pastor choosing to forgo his salary to pay the church utilities or insurance. I know several pastors who do this. Others choose to pay the parsonage mortgage from their tithes hoping one day a pastor will have a home to live in without cost.

10% of what a local church receives as tithes already goes to International offices before a check is ever written to the pastor. Some pastors feel that their portion has already been tithed on and their personal tithes actually constitutes a double tithe. I know that we have been told that this is faulty reasoning but I wonder sometime what benefit do we get from our contribution. I cannot think of one service that the General Headquarters provides for my local church that we cannot provide for ourselves including tax exemption and ordination of ministers.

I will probably get burned for this, but the International offices and State offices need us much more than we need them. If tomorrow Cleveland TN disappeared, my local church would not miss a beat. If my regional office disappeared the only thing I would have to do is find another place for my kids to go to camp.

I wish that the powers that be would recognize this and find ways to support us and prove their value to the local church rather than institute regulations and structure that may further alienate the local pastors.

Getting off my soapbox now!


john

[EagerBeaver]

I honestly think that in a few years, International Offices in its current capacity will cease to function.

[dawgs10]

I honestly think that in a few years, International Offices in its current capacity will cease to function.

no doubt, if local pastors are not tithing to the state i am sure thier church is not tithing to international office. they do more around the world than we will ever know about. we need to remember its not about me and you or I. we need to stop being so selfcentered about local,state, international money.

[Pastor Bill]

but if all the ministers in the state of georgia was paying tithes to the state like they are supposed to then the camp groud and state level positions such as a state youth minister would not have to be supported so much by love offerings and a small amount of churchs that give a lot to these areas. sorry,.

Can you back that up with factual evidence?

KB

We in KY have been told that we are the only state where 100% of pastors receiving a salary are paying tithes to the state offices.

BUT we still do have to watch the budget, it's not as much money as you would think. How we got to this point is not legislation, Scott has not sent letters to pastors who were not, and encouraged them to start, or chided them for mistakes, but instead he balanced our state budget, cut back where needed so that we could operate with what was coming in, and as pastors have seen that, the confidence in the state office has changed the actions of the pastors.

Don't assume those that are not sending in money are doing it selfishly, while I may not agree with their decision, some do it out of a lack of trust/lack of relationship with the state offices.