United Pentecostal Church

EagerBeaver · Postby **EagerBeaver** » May 26th, 2009, 6:23 pm

I don't know if this has ever been discussed on here before, but do you consider the United Pentecostal Church a cult or a legitimate Christian movement?

I pose this question because a friend of mine who attends a local UPC was discussing some doctrinal points with me and seemed to adhere to a very modalistic and legalistic view of Jesus. Basically his viewpoint was that in OT times, God was God; in the NT, God was Jesus; and in the present day, God is the Holy Spirit. He also flatly denied the Trinity as it is taught in most Christian circles (including COGOP).

It made me a bit concerned and I now wonder if the UPC is branded as a cult due to a modalistic point of view.

A2JGirl · Postby **A2JGirl** » May 26th, 2009, 7:42 pm

I knew a girl, 16 or 17 at the time, who was expelled from our Free Will Baptist church's christian school for telling the kindergartners that they weren't saved if they didn't speak in tongues. :shock:

Her father pastored the local UPC church.

It is also my understanding that they all teach and preach the same thing.... literally. Each service is handed down by the higher ups, exactly what will be taught and preached.

pastorables · Postby **pastorables** » May 26th, 2009, 8:28 pm

A2JGirl wrote:It is also my understanding that they all teach and preach the same thing.... literally. Each service is handed down by the higher ups, exactly what will be taught and preached.

I do not believe this to be true. I have worked closely with various UPC (and other "oneness") ministers through the years, and have had nothing but positive Christian fellowship. We've even had several joint services with them through the years. I have preached in their services and felt right at home.

Furthermore, my mother was healed after being prayed for and prophesied over by a Pentecostal minister.

Are they a cult? I don't believe so anymore than we could have been labeled during the early years of embracing extra-biblical teachings, etc.

Do a little research and you will find an extensive list of known Christian artists who are affiliated with the UPC.

God bless,
pa

dolfan · Postby **dolfan** » May 27th, 2009, 12:06 am

As a whole, I don't think the UPC is a cult. I think they are badly off-base. I think they are honestly so for the most part. I also think that there's an extent to which God is gracious enough to allow some of His children to be just dumbfoundingly wrong. While I think that most Christians simply know better than to believe what the UPC teaches about the nature of God and the person of God, I'm also convinced that most UPC believers are no better than what is taught to them. God will have to sort out the accountability for who believes what and why in that organization. The power of the harmfulness of their error does not seem to me to be all that great. Yeah, they're largely ignorant. God help us all from being so in so many other ways that we ought to be aware of but aren't. Their error is, at least as I see it, not comparable to the groups we roundly bat down here about WOF. They aren't maliciously wrong or wrong for some other motive such as greed. They're wrong from what appears to be a genuine misunderstanding of Biblical teaching. For one, I can live with that as far as how I personally treat them and consider them.

kurt73 · Postby **kurt73** » May 27th, 2009, 2:45 am

Trinity has various meanings. I know when UPC uses the word trinity they are talking about denominations that believe in three separate gods. Not the God the John speaks of in John 1:1-3 that COGOP believes. They also believe in holiness inside and outside of the body. They baptise following the Acts 2:38 (in the name of Jesus) instead of Father, Son & Holy Ghost/Spirit. If you believe in the name of Jesus then you believe in God, they can not be separated. They look at it one way and we look at it another way but all in all we believe the samething.

I have preached in UPC churches and had some great services in those churches. I have actually preached at PA state conference. As far as UPC being a cult, I don't see that being true. I have felt God in their services more then I have felt them in COG, COGOP, Assemblies, etc at times. God visits when we pour our heart to Him in Worship regradless what denomination you are.

Gerald Creasy · Postby **Gerald Creasy** » May 27th, 2009, 2:45 am

There are several issues here that must be identified.

1) Modalism is a heresy. It is an unacceptable aberration of Christianity.

It had virtually disappeared from Christianity until the rise of Pentecostalism. The Assembly Of God as far back as 1914 split over the issue of Trinitarian/Oneness doctrine.

If you chuck the trinity out the door without a fight, can the virgin birth and resurrection be far behind?

2) Whether the UPC is a cult or not depends upon how you define cult.

3) As is so often his wont, Pastor Ables has brought in subjective experience with individuals to answer the question of the whole and even whether or not the Doctrine of the Trinity is really that important.

The accepatability of a belief should not be verified on friendliness, the claim of healing or the fame of certain believers. It should be decided on the Word of God.

A bigger issue here is that most modernday Christians and even COGOP pastors probably couldnt defend the Trinity from scripture if their life depended on it.

kurt73 · Postby **kurt73** » May 27th, 2009, 3:07 am

Gerald Creasy wrote: The accepatability of a belief should not be verified on friendliness, the claim of healing or the fame of certain believers. It should be decided on the Word of God.

A bigger issue here is that most modernday Christians and even COGOP pastors probably couldnt defend the Trinity from scripture if their life depended on it.

Gerald, you still have to be careful with your statement "It should be decided on the Word of God" because of people walk with God. Some are deeper then others in their walk. So I new christian will believe basic stuff where a elder would have a deep walk. Have not you believed in something only to find out God showed you opposite? I do agree the Word should be the determining fact but I can not deny the Presence I felt either. You bring up good points that should be looked at and I agree with.

In general, I see it this way, as Matthew, Mark, Luke and John tell the life of Jesus and each book various a little but yet all points to Christ as the savior. UPC looks at the things a little different yet they Point to Christ as the savior.

We will be surprised when we get to heaven when we see other denominations in there with us. Don't get hung up on denomination.

Gerald Creasy · Postby **Gerald Creasy** » May 27th, 2009, 3:23 am

kurt73 wrote:Gerald, you still have to be careful with your statement "It should be decided on the Word of God" because of people walk with God. Some are deeper then others in their walk. So I new christian will believe basic stuff where a elder would have a deep walk. Have not you believed in something only to find out God showed you opposite? I do agree the Word should be the determining fact but I can not deny the Presence I felt either. You bring up good points that should be looked at and I agree with.

In general, I see it this way, as Matthew, Mark, Luke and John tell the life of Jesus and each book various a little but yet all points to Christ as the savior. UPC looks at the things a little different yet they Point to Christ as the savior.

We will be surprised when we get to heaven when we see other denominations in there with us. Don't get hung up on denomination.

The issue of whether God is a God of Modes or God is trinity is NOT an issue of Denomination.

It is an issue of the fundamental nature of GOD.

As Modalist T D JAkes says "God is a mystery."

Yes God is a mystery but we KNOW things about him. The mysterious things we DO NOT know does not INVALIDATE the things we know.

Is a Christ who is just a God in another falseface, a SAVING Christ???

What a sham to scream from the cross "My God, My God why have thou forsaken me" (All the while giggling behind your mask..hee...hee...I'm right-cheer and they never thunk it)

I am repetatively blown away with how much WE Pentecostals DO NOT CARE HOW CHRIST IS DEFINED. As long as you say the word "CHRIST" and have a good persona you're okay.

kurt73 · Postby **kurt73** » May 27th, 2009, 3:30 am

Do we not affirm that there is one God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Or do we believe in three gods?

Gerald Creasy · Postby **Gerald Creasy** » May 27th, 2009, 3:45 am

kurt73 wrote:Do we not affirm that there is one God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Or do we believe in three gods?

Your question is loaded.

The belief in the Trinity is not polytheism, which would be empasizing the three persons to the sacrifice of the One.

Modalism emphasizes the One to the detriment of the three persons.

If the Trinity is not an issue worth figting for then we have developed a Christianity unrecognizable to the writers of the New Testament.

Pastor Bill · Postby **Pastor Bill** » May 27th, 2009, 3:54 am

Most of the UPC that I know are not modalists, but get caught up more on the word "trinity" and make the assumption that churches are teaching of 3 separate gods. They are very legalistic, and believe tongues is required for salvation, both of which I disagree with, but many are sincere and really trying to seek God. other than the required tongues thing, they aren't too far different than old school CoGoP from the people I have known.

RamboPreacher · Postby **RamboPreacher** » May 27th, 2009, 4:01 am

it is a difficult thing to draw a line.
while it may be an easy task when speaking in generalities and overall "movement" or denominational beliefs, it is not so clear at a local church level, let alone an individual level. So while I agree with GC in general, my experience with individuals in communications is (usually) not heretical in their view of the trinity.

kurt73 · Postby **kurt73** » May 27th, 2009, 4:03 am

Pastor Bill wrote:Most of the UPC that I know are not modalists, but get caught up more on the word "trinity" and make the assumption that churches are teaching of 3 separate gods. They are very legalistic, and believe tongues is required for salvation, both of which I disagree with, but many are sincere and really trying to seek God. other than the required tongues thing, they aren't too far different than old school CoGoP from the people I have known.

Exactly, I agree 100%.

The word trinity or the teachings are not in the bible. The word trinity came from the Romans because of this debate. Hence why Catholics are very strong on worshipping the three gods and praying to Peter, John, Paul, etc.

If you look at various definitions of trinity you will find the various beliefs. Some say trinity ties the three person to One God, other say they are three separate gods. UPC just get hung up on it and consider every denomination trinity and that they worship three gods. I have had UPC ministers read what COGOP believes and they look at me and say, so you are oneness :roll:

Like I said from the very beginning it is all in how you define the word trinity.

kurt73 · Postby **kurt73** » May 27th, 2009, 4:07 am

Gerald Creasy wrote:
kurt73 wrote:Do we not affirm that there is one God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Or do we believe in three gods?

Your question is loaded.

Not a loaded question, there is just one answer. If you believe in ONE God then you can be considered oneness, if you believe in One God existing in three person you can be consider trinity but is not both the samething?

If I finish my prayer by saying " in the name of Jesus" and you finish your prayer "in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Ghost" are we not saying the same thing?

Poimen · Postby **Poimen** » May 27th, 2009, 4:10 am

When it comes to their Christology, in general, they have it right. So, then, when they preach Christ crucified, and risen again, they have enough rudimentary truth to see genuine conversions to the Faith. Hence they are truly Christian and not a pseudo-Christian cult (i.e. Mormons or JWs).

Do I think their modalistic emphasis on the Godhead is error? Yep. But NOT in a damnable way. That is, I do not believe their denial of the trinity is a denial of God, nor of His Son. So that they can indeed be truly saved in spite of their error in this regard.

Jude 2