When did people that pray stop being part of the church?

[Brian]

There is alot of talk around here lately by some who want certain CHRISTIAN PARENTS to have the book thrown at them, charged with murder, and basically put them UNDER the jail. So I'll ask you, when did those parents stop being members of the collective church body?

Some of you who have called for there arrest and imprisonment are the VERY SAME ONES who declare (rightfully so) that all saved people are part of the universal church and body of Christ. Are those parents excluded? At what point did they fall off? Where they never really saved to begin with? Let's carry on a modern day witch hunt and purge the church of these wolves in sheeps clothing!! PLEASE! GIVE ME A BREAK!

I tell ya guys I am at my witt's end with the slander and judgements and backbitting treatment of those who are suppose to be OUR BROTHERS! Like I said before, the world no longer has to try to tear apart the body of Christ cause we are doing a fine job of it all by ourselves!

[one love]

There is alot of talk around here lately by some who want certain CHRISTIAN PARENTS to have the book thrown at them, charged with murder, and basically put them UNDER the jail. So I'll ask you, when did those parents stop being members of the collective church body?

Some of you who have called for there arrest and imprisonment are the VERY SAME ONES who declare (rightfully so) that all saved people are part of the universal church and body of Christ. Are those parents excluded? At what point did they fall off? Where they never really saved to begin with? Let's carry on a modern day witch hunt and purge the church of these wolves in sheeps clothing!! PLEASE! GIVE ME A BREAK!

I tell ya guys I am at my witt's end with the slander and judgements and backbitting treatment of those who are suppose to be OUR BROTHERS! Like I said before, the world no longer has to try to tear apart the body of Christ cause we are doing a fine job of it all by ourselves!

WOW that was a great point and a fine analogy IMHO

[ImaPK]

There is alot of talk around here lately by some who want certain CHRISTIAN PARENTS to have the book thrown at them, charged with murder, and basically put them UNDER the jail. So I'll ask you, when did those parents stop being members of the collective church body?

Some of you who have called for there arrest and imprisonment are the VERY SAME ONES who declare (rightfully so) that all saved people are part of the universal church and body of Christ. Are those parents excluded? At what point did they fall off? Where they never really saved to begin with? Let's carry on a modern day witch hunt and purge the church of these wolves in sheeps clothing!! PLEASE! GIVE ME A BREAK!

I tell ya guys I am at my witt's end with the slander and judgements and backbitting treatment of those who are suppose to be OUR BROTHERS! Like I said before, the world no longer has to try to tear apart the body of Christ cause we are doing a fine job of it all by ourselves!

Brian, I for one, have never said that these parents are not part of the "body". I, like Paul, have seen God work miracles and supplied the needs in my own family, all through prayer. I agree with Beav, that you should pray while calling 911. Pray for divine healing. Pray that, if not divinely healed, God will guide the doctors. Think on this...there are too many cases where God has shown HIS POWER in a hospital by healing someone when the doctors have given up hope. I know personally two doctors who became Christians by seeing just this thing. Faith can be a powerful thing in a person's life. Only God can judge the actions of these two sets of parents. But they still have to answer to man's laws in this lifetime.

[Brian]

Only God can judge the actions of these two sets of parents. But they still have to answer to man's laws in this lifetime.

I agree. I also agree, for the hundreth time that calling 911 is a no brainer. I would, and like PG said they did too. My problem is not answering to the laws of the land, my problem is the venom spit out by CHURCH folks toward these parents.

[Full Quiver]

If God gave man the knowledge to provide medical care then surely God can tell these parents, those that have endangered their children for "faith" and watched them die, that HE gave doctors the knowledge to heal.

Don't ride the fence Brian. God is better than what you make Him out to be. You and others imply that HE provided healing through doctors but then instructs some to pray and allow their children to suffer to death while conveniently forgetting to share this tidbit of knowledge with them.

[TW]

Brian,
Right or wrong, when the life at stake has no "voice" in the matter, and people act on their own beliefs, and refuse to call for trained medical help, deserve no support from Christians (to whom life should be sacred). That they took no substantive action to protect these lives indicates to me that they are more concerned with their beliefs than with God's gift of life. I believe in Divine Healing, I also know that God can and does use doctors in the healing process. To reject them is to reject God's ability to heal as He see fit. They ceased to be part of the church when they put God in a box and said He can only work this way (THEIR WAY).


TW

[Poimen]

Right on Brian.
Right on.

[Full Quiver]

my problem is the venom spit out by CHURCH folks toward these parents.

and our problem is the willingness and support by a few here to allow a child to die that was not given a choice in this matter. That is neither Christ like or American.

You guys cry for the Christian injustice against the parents, murders in the eyes of our law, and we will cry for the injustice against the dead child. I'll sleep well tonight!

[chris]

They ceased to be part of the church when they put God in a box and said He can only work this way (THEIR WAY).


TW[/quote]

WoW strong words!! it seems between you TW and Full Quiver
that this man and woman is not now or my have never been christians in the first place.... mabey they just wanted there child to die from the start? I dont know? or mabey you Full Quiver and TW are not christians eather, because you didn't chew you food enuff today at lunch?? now i'm
not here to fight i love you all! But just because these people made,what seems a very bad judgement call in your/mine/or/the other guys eyes! i stand by them and there faith that we serve a GOD so big and mighty they ran to him first! "just like mary did for her brother lazarus" when he was sick

[Brian]

my problem is the venom spit out by CHURCH folks toward these parents.

and our problem is the willingness and support by a few here to allow a child to die that was not given a choice in this matter. That is neither Christ like or American.

You guys cry for the Christian injustice against the parents, murders in the eyes of our law, and we will cry for the injustice against the dead child. I'll sleep well tonight!

What you seem to continue to miss is the fact that I and everyone else I have seen post about these events also weep for the tragety of these poor dead defensless children at that hands of loving parents who were only seeking to be obedient to the Lord and did not intend for this tragety to happen. What the entire situation needs is more love and compassion instead of the type of slander that has been said about these people.
I have never one single time said they handled these situations in the best way possible. TW, I do not double speak ever. Nor do I play both sides on the coin by saying out of one side of my mouth that doctors can bring about God's healing for some and others are ok if they just pray. I have said all along that is should be BOTH. Just because I don't want to drain the blood fromn the parents to satify my lust for punishing accoutability doesn't mean I condone the manner in which these case were handled.

It's funny how things happen. If I was to come here and give a testamony of how my son had an attack of seizures and he literally stopped breathing and turned purple and we laid hands on him and felt the power of God restore his body and regain his breathe and heal him you would be praising God and giving Him glory for a mighty miraclulous work. But if the very same event took place and for what ever reason in a flash of only a few seconds my son was to die some here would be calling for the lynch mob and the executioner. I don't get it.

And also I don't get why some of you seem to have amnesia and froget that I and everyone else here has said that calling the doctors were completely the right thing to do. DO BOTH. But life is fragile. It can slip away in a fraction of a second, even before there is a chance to make the call.

[Full Quiver]

And also I don't get why some of you seem to have amnesia and froget that I and everyone else here has said that calling the doctors were completely the right thing to do.

No Brian, everyone here has not said that. Poimen compared these folks to the prophets and Apostles. If they were such then this child would be alive! If they did the right thing and called the doctors then they wouldn't be convicted of murder and Poimen wouldn't be comparing them to Daniel, Peter, and Paul.


Chris, again I ask, what makes these folks Christian? Maybe they are Jehovah's witness, a cult, that church that protests the funerals of soldiers, or some other crazy fringe group. Just because the media portrays them as Christian doesn't mean that they are. Not everyone that calls upon the name of the Lord is in fact a child of His. Christians are to do no harm but are to love their neighbor as themselves. I'd BET CASH MONEY that not everyone in that room was willing to lie there and suffer the way that child did but yet they didn't love that child in the same way that they love themselves and THEREFORE they are in violation of 1 if not both of the greatest commandments.

[chris]

And also I don't get why some of you seem to have amnesia and froget that I and everyone else here has said that calling the doctors were completely the right thing to do.

No Brian, everyone here has not said that. Poimen compared these folks to the prophets and Apostles. If they were such then this child would be alive! If they did the right thing and called the doctors then they wouldn't be convicted of murder and Poimen wouldn't be comparing them to Daniel, Peter, and Paul.


Chris, again I ask, what makes these folks Christian? Maybe they are Jehovah's witness, a cult, that church that protests the funerals of soldiers, or some other crazy fringe group. Just because the media portrays them as Christian doesn't mean that they are. Not everyone that calls upon the name of the Lord is in fact a child of His. Christians are to do no harm but are to love their neighbor as themselves. I'd BET CASH MONEY that not everyone in that room was willing to lie there and suffer the way that child did but yet they didn't love that child in the same way that they love themselves and THEREFORE they are in violation of 1 if not both of the greatest commandments.

/
you ask me what makes these folks Christian? this is from the fox news... Neumann, who once studied to be a Pentecostal minister, testified Thursday that he believed God would heal his daughter and he never expected her to die. God promises in the Bible to heal, he said.

"If I go to the doctor, I am putting the doctor before God," Neumann testified. "I am not believing what he said he would do."

I am thinking "studied to be a Pentecostal minister" whould put him in a
christian feild of faith. where he whould pray to God through Jesus.

[Brian]

And also I don't get why some of you seem to have amnesia and forget that I and everyone else here has said that calling the doctors were completely the right thing to do.

No Brian, everyone here has not said that. Poimen compared these folks to the prophets and Apostles. If they were such then this child would be alive! If they did the right thing and called the doctors then they wouldn't be convicted of murder and Poimen wouldn't be comparing them to Daniel, Peter, and Paul.


Chris, again I ask, what makes these folks Christian? Maybe they are Jehovah's witness, a cult, that church that protests the funerals of soldiers, or some other crazy fringe group. Just because the media portrays them as Christian doesn't mean that they are. Not everyone that calls upon the name of the Lord is in fact a child of His. Christians are to do no harm but are to love their neighbor as themselves. I'd BET CASH MONEY that not everyone in that room was willing to lie there and suffer the way that child did but yet they didn't love that child in the same way that they love themselves and THEREFORE they are in violation of 1 if not both of the greatest commandments.

/
you ask me what makes these folks Christian? this is from the fox news... Neumann, who once studied to be a Pentecostal minister, testified Thursday that he believed God would heal his daughter and he never expected her to die. God promises in the Bible to heal, he said.

"If I go to the doctor, I am putting the doctor before God," Neumann testified. "I am not believing what he said he would do."

I am thinking "studied to be a Pentecostal minister" would put him in a
christian field of faith. where he would pray to God through Jesus.

Chris, you are right that this man was mos likely in the christian faith just like you , I, Full Quiver, Poimen, one love, and the rest of us here at the best place on earth = jude2
However, Full Quiver is correct to question there standing in the faith that requires them to love other more than themselves and to put the children first. I know you agree, we talked on the phone And I also know you agree that these parents probably could have saved themselves alot of heartache that they are going through now if they would have only had there daughter under the care of a doctor.
But what I am not will to do, and I know your not either, is to through them under the bus and demand they go to prison and be tried as murderers.

Love ya brother

[Full Quiver]

But what I am not will to do, and I know your not either, is to through them under the bus and demand they go to prison and be tried as murderers.

So justice comes after religion?

Their "beliefs" got them into this trouble and you say they are excused but the belief of the immoral to sin with premeditation sends them straight to jail. I can't separate the two. No where do I find it ok to willfully break a law unless I have to denounce God. They weren't asked to do that and neither were the TCoG couple in New Mexico but in fact Stephen Smith refuses to be interviewed by the media but sent a letter out to the media that throws this couple clean under the bus.

[TW]

Brian, your response deserves my rebuttal (and that's not a bad thing).

First I never said that you "double speak," or play both sides of the coin. You have repeatedly stated that there is a place for both prayer and medical intervention. What I have said is: to deny God's ability to use medical intervention (doctors, nurses, paramedics, etc.} is to put God in a box and tell Him that He must do it this way (the way that they believe). These people have fallen victim to one of the most miss understood, and miss taught "doctrines" in Pentecostalism. They have been taught, and teach that healing must be the kind of dynamic display of the New Testament. They have been taught, and teach that God "promises" to heal. Therefore God's healing must be of a "dynamic display!" Because of this they deny the power of God to act in any other fashion, or through other means.

Now let discuss the real victims, the children. I don't think that I need to remind you that Jesus had a special relationship with children, even going so far as to warn His apostles against hindering them from coming to Him. In addition He stated that should any bring offense (harm) to a child that it would be better for him to have a millstone tied around his neck and cast into the sea. I know of no other group of people that Jesus decreed such a gruesome death for their physical bodies. A slow death which would allow them time to understand the feeling of helplessness.

If Jesus said this should be their punishment why would I want to fellowship in a church with them?


TW