Jeremiah 1:5

[Full Quiver]

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Gerald, pro-lifers like me use this verse to say that God knows us from our very beginnings and that we are life, we are human, even within the womb.

In your opinion is this verse used wrongly?

Is this verse only in reference to Jeremiah the prophet?

Is it possible that God didn't know you or I in our mother's womb?

If HE did and this verse cannot be used as evidence of that, then HOW do we know HE knew us?

[dolfan]

Can Horshack answer?

Ooh, ooh, ooh! Mista Kotta!

How do we know He knew us?

1 John 3:20, John 21:17 God knows all things.

Ephesians 1:11 Romans 11:33-36 God works everything after the counsel of His own will. There are no surprises or learned facts in Him.

Hebrews 4:13 Every creature is manifest in His sight. We are open and naked in His eyes. Nothing is hidden. All is known, always.

Proverbs 15:3 God's "eyes" are everywhere. There is nothing that He does not see, nothing of which He is unaware.

That doesn't tell you what Gerald thinks of Jeremiah's verse, but the Bible is clear that God knows us. We can know that He knows us, always, without the Jeremiah verse. That doesn't mean that we cannot apply the verse in Jeremiah as you suggest we can (in fact, we can, rightly). Only that it is not the only verse that teaches us that God knows us in our mother's wombs.

[pastorables]

Colossians 1:16
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

[Gerald]

Be real, Danny. You have used a passage where god IS talking to a specific person but he is talking about something -as others have shown- that embraces his omniscience.

We had a head-butt a few weeks back over your use of Jer 29:11 "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end." Especially since OTHER versions use the word Prosper in their version.


This can NOT be used as a promise to ALL PEOPLE because it is to a specific situation and is NOT descriptive of Gods intentions for all believers,

ANY PRESON WHO TELLS YOU OTHERWISE IS A LIAR.

But then, most ministers nowadays are ear-scratchers.

We must continually ask ourselves when we hear something preached: DID THIS WORK FOR STEPHEN? How did Stephen prosper? DID THIS WORK for those people in the OTHER part of the "FAITH CHAPTER" you NEVER hear a preacher preach (the part where people were sawn asunder etc)?

If the answer is No the guy behind the pulpit is just a blowhard.



If it didnt for ground Zero Christians it is DELUSIONAL to think it WILL for you.

[scooter]

We must continually ask ourselves when we hear something preached: DID THIS WORK FOR STEPHEN? How did Stephen prosper? DID THIS WORK for those people in the OTHER part of the "FAITH CHAPTER" you NEVER hear a preacher preach (the part where people were sawn asunder etc)?
.

Response: I think the problem here is two fold. One, preachers pervert the scriptures and bend them towards prosperity (here). So in that way you are correct.

On the other hand you think if someone, a christian, suffers here, even dies somehow thats a bad thing.lol Like God's plan to prosper someone ends with a stoning. That to me is short sighted. In that regard you are incorrect.

I see the scripture applying to all believers.

I guess I'm a LIAR.

BTW how'd your understanding of that scripture work out for those who, in your view, it was specifically intended???????

I'll agree that it may not apply to all "believers" but it does apply for all true "believers".

God has good thoughts towards and has an expected end for all true beleivers.

[Gerald]

We must continually ask ourselves when we hear something preached: DID THIS WORK FOR STEPHEN? How did Stephen prosper? DID THIS WORK for those people in the OTHER part of the "FAITH CHAPTER" you NEVER hear a preacher preach (the part where people were sawn asunder etc)?
.

Response: I think the problem here is two fold. One, preachers pervert the scriptures and bend them towards prosperity (here). So in that way you are correct.

On the other hand you think if someone, a christian, suffers here, even dies somehow thats a bad thing.lol Like God's plan to prosper someone ends with a stoning. That to me is short sighted. In that regard you are incorrect.

I see the scripture applying to all believers.

I guess I'm a LIAR.

BTW how'd your understanding of that scripture work out for those who, in your view, it was specifically intended???????

I'll agree that it may not apply to all "believers" but it does apply for all true "believers".

God has good thoughts towards and has an expected end for all true beleivers.

Then you are an Ear-scratcher.

The "gospel" you preach is a lie.

It WOULD NOT WORK for Christians who were burned at the stake in order to illuminate the gardens of Ceasar.

It would not work for Christians fed to lions.

It would not work for Stephen as a stone cracked his skull.

It would not work for Peter who was crucified upside down the day after seeing his own wife crucified (According to Christian tradition).

What was Gods "good thoughts" towards them?

YOUR Gospel is ONLY for the beautiful people. Those who are already prosperous. Those who have good health. Those who have good fortune.

If you say the "good thoughts" are for the afterlife you MAKE MY POINT: It is NOT for the here and now in our LIFE (which is how it is preached).

[Full Quiver]

2 Corinthians 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.

16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


Seems like you view things through a different vision than the Apostle Paul, the man that actually suffered the things you speak of and who consented to Stephen's stoning.



Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:


Your posts read as if some Christians have it better than others therefore implying that God favors one over another. I'm sure you have much more than MOST Christians throughout the world have.



Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


In verse 10 glory implies dignity, honour implies valuable, and peace implies prosperity.

You, as of late, always point towards the martyrs and how we must be preaching and believing incorrectly because they were treated so inhumanely. Are we not Christians since we obviously have it so well? Are we not Christians because we are not physically persecuted? I thought we were saved by His grace through faith; I didn't get the memo that stoning and burning of my flesh was required for salvation.

No martyr endured more than Jesus Christ Himself; HE being God CHOSE to suffer and die. HE counted it joy, HE did it for the JOY that was set before HIM. I happen to believe that most if not all martyrs for Christ died with the same passion.

I know of some African believers that have wells, they have covered shelters to worship in, they have medical supplies due to Christians giving. Are they not blessed? Are they not PROSPERED?


Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.


If some Christians have the gift of giving then where does the money that they are gifted to give come from? Sounds like they would also be equipped to GET if they are equipped to GIVE. How is that? How could God prosper them in such a way and I don't have such a gift but maybe I have the gift of prophecy instead?

[scooter]

Then you are an Ear-scratcher.

The "gospel" you preach is a lie.

Response:

Do you ever feel bad about acting like that?

[dolfan]

Without regard to Jer. 29:11, the record in the Bible and church history is conclusive. The kingdom to which we belong is not of this world nor of the prosperity of this world; any prosperity in this world enjoyed by any Christian is, in his hand, rendered a tool to magnify Him. That is the sum and substance of the use of that tool. Just as persecutions magnify God, so does prosperity. Some are prosperous, some are not.

The question seems to really fall down to this: Why is that? Well, I think the record is also conclusive on this. We don't know why. But, the God who creates all things for His pleasure is pleased that it should be so. Some people seemingly back into prosperity, some work slavishly for it; others work equally hard and smart and do not prosper or prosper less. Can we chalk that up to being human? It is the common experience of all people everywhere at all times that some are generally "better off" than others.

That does not make God a respecter of persons. If it did, then He would be a "respecter of persons" for having decided, in the counsel of His own will, to love Jacob and hate Esau, to prepare some vessels for honor and some for dishonor, as the scripture says. The God of Everything is in charge. I'm comforted by that and I think most Christians who are not well off and who suffer immensely for the faith are also comforted by His Sovereignty.

In my own opinion, prosperity is a detriment to Christian living instead of a blessing. Generally, I think this is so. Jesus said that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. It caused people to say, "Well, then, who CAN be saved?". Proverbs 30:7-9 is the heart of everyone who would be rich in the Spirit and poor in the flesh, to honor God with all of our substance. We are shortsighted. We do not depend on God in the moment, preferring instead to discern (albeit unsuccessfully) somehow what is our lot in life; we also tend to the temporal to find our satisfactions instead of the simple supply of the Lord in fellowship, even when our satisfactions are pretty well met.

I don't see where Jeremiah 29:11 has anything to do with it, personally.

[Full Quiver]

Dolfan, do we reap what we sow?

Is it true or false that if we sow sparingly we shall also reap sparingly?

[dolfan]

Dolfan, do we reap what we sow?

Is it true or false that if we sow sparingly we shall also reap sparingly?

According to 2 Corinthians 9, a bountiful, liberally giving heart that is demonstrated in a bountiful, liberally giving life is part of the powerful relationship we have with God. He who sows blessings will reap blessings, it says, literally. And, certainly, that was a financial appeal from Paul and a doctrine (I'd say) of the connection between our hearts and our substance. As the woman who cast in her two mites at the temple gave her all as opposed to those who only gave of surplus, and was judged by Jesus as having given more than even the wealthy, her heart preceded her hand in the matter, but her hand demonstrated her heart.

There is no record of how she fared later. I don't know whether she remained poor or not. I think if it had mattered, there would have been a statement from one of the gospel writers. No one gives their all to the kingdom who doesn't receive much more in this life and the one to come. The "more in this life" part can, indeed, be material blessing and what we'd call wealth. But, given that the Lord Himself was very specific about the difficulty of a wealthy person entering the kingdom (and specific examples such as the rich young ruler) and His emphatic demand that one cannot serve God and wealth, my own understanding of the Bible's counsel is that "more in this life" is not what we would typically think of as wealth. If I understand the Bible here, rightly, "more" is realized in fellowship with other believers. "More" is the supply of God through the Body of Christ. "More" is the common wealth of believers -- common not by adding it up but by dividing it amongst, by multiplying through dividing so to speak. "More" is, in fact, demonstrated in this manner in particular IN 2 Corinthians 9. Certainly, those who would receive and use the gifts Paul teaches and urges there would think of "more" in that manner seeing as how they would receive the "more" (the gifts) that way.

So, FQ, yeah. It says that. I am convicted by it. I truly wish I had been much wiser much sooner than at this point in my own life, and much more toward liberal giving. I pray and work to do more now, though. I have a long way to go, but the distance between where I am now and where I need to be is no excuse for not heading there swiftly, is it?

(I still don't see where Jeremiah 29:11 plays into it.)

[scooter]

(I still don't see where Jeremiah 29:11 plays into it.)

Response: I don't see it much different than "the Lord is my Shepherd".

This type of Biblical critique that resigns the Lord to only being David's shepherd is what is at stake.

These people attack OT prophets denying the virgin birth resigning OT books to simply poetry.

The OT holds significant value for the NT church. In fact as you know the NT church didn't even have the NT.

It's hard to see people devalue what the OT says about believers.

Taking the role of denying this scripture in essence says the opposite of what God thinks.

So let's play like it only applied to the specific generation to which it was written. They all died. The went into captivity. Uggg.

I look at the OT as the word of God and that that same Word became flesh. It is timeless regarding how God sees His Children.

I understand there are scriptures that record history, contain poetry, etc. however there are both patterns and types and shadows of God's plan for us.

God's plans for us are for good. He knows the future. His Word does not stop at our death neither does it only begin there.

[pastorables]

(I still don't see where Jeremiah 29:11 plays into it.)

there are both patterns and types and shadows of God's plan for us.

Be careful, you'll be accused of using churchese.

[Full Quiver]

Dolfan, I am not necessarily comparing the two.


Gerald, there is NO WHERE in the WORD that said if you ask the Sun to stand still I will make it happen YET JOSHUA dared to ask and guess what, God made it ahppen.

NO WHERE is Scripture does the Lord say if you need a sign for the SUN to go back 10 degrees then just ask BUT Hezekiah dared asked and guess what, God made it happen.

You are of the mindset that IF the BIBLE doesn't specifically say this or that then we can in no way expect God to move when we ask.


John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.


Gerald, the Greek here is in no way specific to certain things that we ask BUT rather whatever we ask in the name of Jesus God will give.
Now of course I also understand the asking amiss that James wrote of but if our intent is to glorify God and it serves HIS purpose then how do you argue against such?

Those that know me also know that I am not a name it claim it guy, not a Word of Faith guy, and sure aint driving a Cadillac nor have I asked God for one. I am very content with the things that I do have and I find that to be my Biblical place.

[dolfan]

(I still don't see where Jeremiah 29:11 plays into it.)

Response: I don't see it much different than "the Lord is my Shepherd".

This type of Biblical critique that resigns the Lord to only being David's shepherd is what is at stake.

These people attack OT prophets denying the virgin birth resigning OT books to simply poetry.

The OT holds significant value for the NT church. In fact as you know the NT church didn't even have the NT.

It's hard to see people devalue what the OT says about believers.

Taking the role of denying this scripture in essence says the opposite of what God thinks.

So let's play like it only applied to the specific generation to which it was written. They all died. The went into captivity. Uggg.

I look at the OT as the word of God and that that same Word became flesh. It is timeless regarding how God sees His Children.

I understand there are scriptures that record history, contain poetry, etc. however there are both patterns and types and shadows of God's plan for us.

God's plans for us are for good. He knows the future. His Word does not stop at our death neither does it only begin there.

I don't want to be taken the wrong way. On Jer. 29:11, I shared with Gerald a few weeks ago some things I'd prepared for a lesson that I gave on one of our Friday night discipleship meetings. So, I will stand pat on my understanding of that verse, that God was telling Jeremiah for Israel to take heart during the Babylonian captivity, that He had a specific plan for Israel in particular. It testifies to God's righteousness in that He did what He said He'd do.

My biggest heartburn with the way Jer. 29:11 is applied and used is this notion that God has a plan for my life and that I am to try to seek and find that plan. That's simply not the case. I am to seek and find Him. He is the plan. If I am hearing and doing what Jesus said, He reveals Himself to me. That's the plan. I hear and I do and He discloses Himself to me, He is glorified and worshipped and made glorious in the sight of others because of His "unveiling" (so to speak) in my life. Now, I know it is much more than just that but my point is there is no "plan" for me that I am to pursue. I am to pursue Him, and He leads me and I follow and that's the plan. He unfolds Himself as I walk in His paths, and I continue to move "from glory to glory", as it were, maturing and growing ever more aware of Him, reflecting more and more of Him, conforming more and more into His image.

I made that point because there is great frustration in Christian life because people are searching for "God's will for my life." Well, you know, God's will for your life is to follow Him as He leads you in each moment, in fellowship and prayer and communion with Him. He shows Himself to you, you seek Him and find Him, and He leads you. He does much more in you than showing Himself --- He actually conforms you to the image of His Son. In fact, that is your destiny, according to Romans. He has predestined us to be conformed to the image of His Son. People seeking "God's will" deserve (I think) to be free from the guilt of not finding "God's will". It is unnecessary guilt because it is non-existent as an object of our Godly affections. God's will is what God expresses to us in His Word and what He leads us in as we live life in real time and as we follow that lead. Even Paul said he had not attained unto anything, but that he pressed on toward the mark. He, the great apostle of our Scriptures, had not attained "God's will". He was too busy following God's lead to have ever arrived at "God's will".

So many times I think most if not all of us have felt so frustrated by not knowing "God's will for my life". And, the frustration is self-made. It is the result of a self-created illusion of something God never said to seek. It reminds me a bit of the whole "having faith in faith" problem that we've gone over on this board in years past, but I won't elaborate so as not to sidetrack too much. But, the hope in all this is that we can be free from that frustration and without regret of not having "done God's will for my life".

I can testify to that myself. And, it took me years to arrive here. I'm the poster boy for not doing "God's will for my life" --- that is, if by that phrase I mean that God called me into ministry and I blew it with rash decisions and pride that I leaned on to take me down another road. If "God's will for my life" was to enter the pastorate, I'd be toast. I'm 20 years removed from that pursuit, aged 45 and no prospects of ever doing that. But, make no mistake, I've wished 1,000,000 times over that I had and my heart is still stirs with that desire to the point of tearful joy because I now do what I do in a pastoral/shepherding/caretaking/helping way without any office or title because that's what God is leading me to do today and I'm following His lead. So, am I now in God's "plan B"? No. I'm with God, period. No contingencies. He is sovereign. From time and eternity past, He knew all along what I would do. He, not some imagined "plan for my life" (and, no I don't apologize to Bill Bright, I simply don't agree with him) or "God's will for my life", is leading me.

And, I finally came to understand that because there is no book in a heavenly library somewhere with my name on it entitled "God's Plan for Tim's Life", that I don't have to live by a plan that isn't true in the first place. The life that I now live I live by the faith in the Son of God who gave Himself for me.

So, that's where I am on Jer. 29:11.

Now, I fully get you on the point, though, about so limiting scripture to context that the fuller point of the truth of it is missed. You know, we read a lot of applications by Jesus of scriptures that, if we were simply reading them without the light of His comments on them, we would never apply them to Him because of their context. At the same time, we have a duty to the Bible to rightly divide it. I simply came to the studied and prayerful conclusion that Jeremiah 29:11 is one of those verses that we can't remove from its context to apply more broadly in the sense of knowing "God's plan for our lives". It is not a personal statement, it is a statement to the people as a whole of Judah. To make it personal, in my understanding of it, is to misapply it.

I don't fault anyone for doing so, but I won't agree with it.