Questions?

[KBevangelist]

After reading several threads I have a thought (I know that is scary to some of you) and a question?

Do we consistently bash prophetic, healing and gifts of the spirit type ministries because we are intimidated by them? Is it possible that we enjoy when these ministries fell because we feel slighted by them or God who does these supernatural things?

or Do we have a legit reason to knock them down, instead of praying and lifting them up?

Jonah spoke a word of prophecy to Ninevah, that it would be destroyed. HOwever, they heard the word, repented and God repented (Jonah 3:10)of his wrath and did not destroy them. Does this make Jonah a false prophet? What he spoke did not come pass because the people turned back to God.

Robertson spoke a prophecy it didnt happen to the full extent of what he said. Could it be that their were intercessors praying that kept it from happening?

Just some rambling thoughts, did not want to hijack the other thread on Pat Robertson

KB

[TW]

KB,

I think that you have to look at the number of times that a prophetic word was given in the Bible. Of all those prophesies, how many times did God change His mind? The cases are few and far between. Now look at the prophesies that are spewed out by some of the most visible of the "Christian Leaders" on TV. How many of their prophetic words have come to pass? If we measure the authenticity of a persons prophetic gift by results, these men, individually and collectively, are not authentic prophets. I will not judge their salvation, that is not within my power, I can judge their actions. If they repeatedly give prophesies and those prophesies fail to occur, it reflects badly upon their ministry. People will look at them as being shams and con artist. What is worse is that is frequently transfered to other ministries that are trying to bring souls home to the Lord.


TW

[Gerald Creasy]

The problem I have is that there is no IF with modern day prophecies: I e "If you don't turn back...." "If you don't repent...." as I assumed the case of Jonah to be.

We have flat statements of THIS WILL: as in Benny Hinn "prophesying" that Fidel Castro would be dead by 2000 or that God was going to wipe all homosexuals out by a certain date.

Both were flat statements with no conditional IFS applied.
BOTH were flat wrong.

I am not intimidated by an idiot.
I do not make excuses for any man as a FAN of a ministry.
And I certainly give no creedence to a bufoon who lies and says God told him to do so.

[KBevangelist]

The problem I have is that there is no IF with modern day prophecies: I e "If you don't turn back...." "If you don't repent...." as I assumed the case of Jonah

I agree.

Seems there alot of prophecies that do not include repentence.

[paul]

I am not intimidated by an idiot.
I do not make excuses for any man as a FAN of a ministry.
And I certainly give no creedence to a bufoon who lies and says God told him to do so.

Gerald, do you ever think you might get to the place in life that you can make reference to someone without the name calling ?

Kevangelist...I wish we would spend as much time praying for them instead of bashing them. Of course that means directing our attention towards them and off ourselves.

[paul]

does there have to be "IF'S" in a prophecy? Depends on the prophecy.

I have seen both types many times. And have been used by the Lord to give both types.

2005 In Kano, Nigeria I hld the first outdoor crusade since 1991 when Rheinhard Boonkie had to be smuggled out of Kano and more than 3,000, mostly christians were killed.

Thre was a lot of fear from people that it would happen again as rumors swirled. I took a good friend with me who God uses very heavely in the prophetic. On the second night of the crusade he asked to share a prophetic word over the city.

As he spoke you knew something was different, therre was a power, authority that came forth. It was a prophetic decleration over the city that change was coming, the stronghold was being broken that night, fear would no longer reign over that city. You could feel spiritual powers being broken, even as he spoke.

The liberty the following night was incredible. When I returned in 2006 for another crudae, I was informed that indeed the spiritual atmosphere has changed. Churches were holding revivals in their churches at an unprecedented rate. Ministers from other parts of Nigeria were coming and holding crusades. Churches are being established in areas where before they would be burned down even before they were completed.

This can be verified with names and email addresses. This example was very simple. God used a man ( not me ) to make a prophetic declaration over a city and it came to pass.

Sometimes the IF's have already been accomplished and don't need repeating....." If my people, who are called by my name...."

[Gerald Creasy]

Gerald, do you ever think you might get to the place in life that you can make reference to someone without the name calling ?

Hey, I call vipers vipers. I'm glad you have moved to a higher level than our lord himself.

There MOST definitely has to be SOME TYPE of qualifying if.

Take the Benny HInn Prophecy for example:

"The Lord also tells me to tell you in the mid 90's, about '94-'95, no later than that, God will destroy the homosexual community of America. [audience applauds] But He will not destroy it - with what many minds have thought Him to be, He will destroy it with fire. And many will turn and be saved, and many will rebel and be destroyed."

Now Paul, since you have set yourself up as apologist for false prophets and ministers who preach Jesus wasnt God, please explain how this was a true word from God

[Alan]

KB,

Now look at the prophesies that are spewed out by some of the most visible of the "Christian Leaders" on TV. How many of their prophetic words have come to pass? If we measure the authenticity of a persons prophetic gift by results, these men, individually and collectively, are not authentic prophets.


TW

Now I can agree with this, IF they have given a time line or date that it will happen by. However, if you are judging by someone saying several years ago and it still hasn't happened (even after the "prophet" has passed on), then I can't agree with it. Look at Isaiah, most of his prophecy came to pass long after his death.

[paul]

Hey, I call vipers vipers. I'm glad you have moved to a higher level than our lord himself.

So, Gerald does this mean that you place yourself on the same level as the Lord ?

b]There MOST definitely has to be SOME TYPE of qualifying if.[/b]

Take the Benny HInn Prophecy for example:

"The Lord also tells me to tell you in the mid 90's, about '94-'95, no later than that, God will destroy the homosexual community of America. [audience applauds] But He will not destroy it - with what many minds have thought Him to be, He will destroy it with fire. And many will turn and be saved, and many will rebel and be destroyed.

Now Paul, the great heretic apologist, please explain how this was a true word from God

Gerald you give me to much credit

We both know that the test is if it comes to pass or not. I do not agree with spiritualizing them. Your above example did not take place, so I would not receive it as a word from the Lord.

Does that mean if someone gives a word and it does not come to pass He/She is a false prophet ? This to me gets stickiey. Someone who prophecises a knowing false lie, deliberately, for self gain. Or someone who misses it and gets in the flesh but meant well, more room for debate.

[Pastor Bill]

I Believe in prophecy, I believe in healing, I believe in miracles.

these are true moves of God, but the bible also tells us to know those that labor among us and to test the spirits and a prophet.

To equate disagreement with these who have shown themselves false, is not a strike against these gifts, but against these ministries.

I have no confidence in Hinn or many of these ministers, does that mean I have no confidence in God? not at all, equating their ministries with all of Pentecostalism, or all of the work of God is short sited to say the least.

When these things happened in my home church, I fully believe in them, when they are testified to by many here on J2, I can trust in them, but when someone who I have seen example after example of errors and false teachings, I don't believe it is unbiblical to mark that person and have nothing to do with them.

[Dr. Ron]

Many of us who grew up in the world of pentecostalism could tell story after story of the false and the true.

I believe as much today in the miracluous as ever....however, I do understand the reasons behind some of them. I know this will not be a popular statement (all respect to Paul and his work), but there are places in the world where that is more needed and is more realistic than others.

In developing countries where Paul ministers, the people have a more simplistic mind set and they are where we were in the early years of pentecostalism. They need to see the miracles...as do we all....but stay with me.

What has happened in America, will happen there if the leadership does what it did here. Everyone wants the "Toronto Blessing" or the Pennsecola Power in their local church. Ministries flock to the TBN guys to try to immitate them. Why????? To get bigger crowds.....

The lack of compassion for lost souls is eating me alive. I don't see it or hear it in the pentecostal circles....I hear only the need to have a direction for the "church". How do we perpetuate this "organization" ....and before you blow a gasket, I am not talking about COGOP alone. It is across the board!!!!

I see it and hear it in the voices of Paul, and men like him who are taking the message around the world and people are being saved. When I was an overseer I had pastors who wanted to run off to Russia , Bulgaria, and everywhere to "reap the harvest"....and their own churches were drying up and dieing! WE DON'T GET IT!!!!!

Back to the original subject!! THE SPIRIT AND THE WORD AGREE!!! That is the litmus test of all miracles and prophecies! Period. It is up to the leadership to test all that by the word and make a judgement on it. Then ALL words should be held accountable! Period. It is time to stop the nonesense and get about the Father's business. The purposes of the church (translated direction) are clearly stated in the Word. Just get about the business of doing that and you will see more miracles than you can count!

[Shellie]

Here's my take on the whole matter.

If you don't display the fruit of the spirit, I don't trust your gifts of the spirit.

With that being said, If you can't display the fruit of the spirit, I don't care how much you point out somebody else's misuse of the gifts of the spirit. Pot calling the kettle black. Beam and the mote.

[Gerald Creasy]

Back to the original subject!! THE SPIRIT AND THE WORD AGREE!!! That is the litmus test of all miracles and prophecies! Period. It is up to the leadership to test all that by the word and make a judgement on it. Then ALL words should be held accountable! Period. It is time to stop the nonesense and get about the Father's business. The purposes of the church (translated direction) are clearly stated in the Word. Just get about the business of doing that and you will see more miracles than you can count!

I love this!

Leadership.

Presently, I knock head's with "leadership" that goes all Beatle-girl over Hinn and Jakes.

[paul]

The lack of compassion for lost souls is eating me alive. I don't see it or hear it in the pentecostal circles....I hear only the need to have a direction for the "church". How do we perpetuate this "organization" ....and before you blow a gasket, I am not talking about COGOP alone. It is across the board!!!!

Dr. Ron, thank you. This is the very thing I experience in so many places I go to minister at here in the U.S. And there is very few denom. I haven't spoken in and many non-denom.

A few weeks ago I watched hundred and hundreds come forward for salvation, how I long for that to be a reality here in America also. How I pray that every pastor on this board could stand on a Sunday Morning and give the invitation and the alters be jam packed with sould weeping and crying out to the Lord for their salvation.

Will it happen again ? I will never stop praying nor believing that it will again become a reality here also.

[Gerald Creasy]

With that being said, If you can't display the fruit of the spirit, I don't care how much you point out somebody else's misuse of the gifts of the spirit. Pot calling the kettle black. Beam and the mote.

I don't know but it seems to me that lying in the name of God is a tad bit more serious than people getting insensed that their God is being lied about.

Therefore your Biblical allusion would have to be reversed: The person with the mote is judged more harshly, than the person with the beam.