Huckabee & OSAS

[MrDanger]

You have actually heard a Baptist Preacher or Pastor tell his congregation that they can live anyway they want sin all they want and still have a "Get out of hell free card." ?


No wonder so many are leaving the pentecostal churches in America and attending Baptist and other non-penetcostal churches.. Our attitude and judgemental spirit still prevails.

Okay, isn't this quote laced with judgmental spirit. And to answer your question. Yes, I have heard it. One such church that several of my friends attend even threw a beer bash because "they were all covered in grace". Not that there is anything wrong with that....

There are plenty of churches that teach the abuse of OSAS just like there are many churches in the pentecostal side of things that abuse their teachings. Not judgmental, just fact.

And sense we are asking for documented proof of statements on this thread (which, Steve, I told you they deleted the link and then someone else put it back up concerning his tax record, that's why I didn't repost it), where are you getting your numbers stating people are leaving pentecostalism for other denominations? I just read the opposite statistics the other day. Not that I would be blaming people for leaving with the majority of mainstream pentecostalism being what it is today.

[paul]

Tracy, I have to agree with you on this. FQ, you seem to be straining at a nat and swolling a camel ( Hillary or Obama, or Paul ).

[paul]

You have actually heard a Baptist Preacher or Pastor tell his congregation that they can live anyway they want sin all they want and still have a "Get out of hell free card." ?


No wonder so many are leaving the pentecostal churches in America and attending Baptist and other non-penetcostal churches.. Our attitude and judgemental spirit still prevails.

Okay, isn't this quote laced with judgmental spirit. And to answer your question. Yes, I have heard it. One such church that several of my friends attend even threw a beer bash because "they were all covered in grace". Not that there is anything wrong with that....

There are plenty of churches that teach the abuse of OSAS just like there are many churches in the pentecostal side of things that abuse their teachings. Not judgmental, just fact.

And sense we are asking for documented proof of statements on this thread (which, Steve, I told you they deleted the link and then someone else put it back up concerning his tax record, that's why I didn't repost it), where are you getting your numbers stating people are leaving pentecostalism for other denominations? I just read the opposite statistics the other day. Not that I would be blaming people for leaving with the majority of mainstream pentecostalism being what it is today.

No it was not intended to be judgemental. I was asking Poimen a question concerning His statement.

I minister in many Baptist, Non-pentecostal churches and I constantly run across many (including Preachers and Pastors),who have left the pentecostal movement becaue of harsh critical, judgemental attitudes.

With my association with hundreds of Baptist, Open Door and other evangelical ministers. I have yet to come across any who would blatently tell their people that they could willfully sin. And that it was expected of them to do so. I have heard them say that IF they do sin then it is covered by the Grace of Jesus.

As I have said before I do not agree with the basic intpretation of
Eph 1:13 or Eph 4:30 that OSAS people do.

Abuses abound in every religion to varing degrees. I just don't think we have the right to say if someone is a false convert. Who knows the heart of man ?

[MrDanger]

With my association with hundreds of Baptist, Open Door and other evangelical ministers. I have yet to come across any who would blatently tell their people that they could willfully sin.

Congrats. Unfortunately, still doesn't mean they don't exist. Don't misunderstand me, I am often considered more baptist than pentecostal. But I am a realist and do know from churches I have visited, ministers I know, and members that I have talked to that there are several (at least in this area) that teach OSAS means do what you please and it's covered.

One youth worker explained that you do whatever you want and right before your heart would turn to the place where you would no longer recognize Jesus as Lord, God would take you home.

[paul]

[quote="MrDanger]

One youth worker explained that you do whatever you want and right before your heart would turn to the place where you would no longer recognize Jesus as Lord, God would take you home.

No doubt a very loose intpretation of 1 Cor 3:13-15

I received my undergraduate degree in theology from Faith Baptist College. With all my Lecturers and Prof's. I never heard OSAS expressed as loosley as I hear it described.

[Pastor Gary]

[I never heard OSAS expressed as loosley as I hear it described.

Neither have I, Paul. I know the people here are speaking the truth from their experience, but I have worked closely with a LOT of Baptists (Southern, American, Conservative, Independent...) and have NEVER heard anything of the sort from any of them.

Some of them, in fact, seemed tighter than me on some things.

Those who extol cheap grace do not understand the Reformed view or Calvinism in the classic sense at all, and they are not typical of Baptists.

[MrDanger]

I agree wholeheartedly PG. I get aggravated when I hear people refer to OSAS as always abusing grace. Most Baptists I know teach holiness stronger and more accurately than most pentecostals (and the workings of the Holy Spirit as well).

My posts have been about how adamant Paul has been that it isn't taught that way. If I misunderstood him, then I apologize.

One of the bigger Baptist churches in Nashville has a great policy also...if you pay enough tithes, you get to be a deacon. If you stop paying "the minimum" you get downgraded. It's a great gig if you can get it.

[Steve]

where are you getting your numbers stating people are leaving pentecostalism for other denominations? I just read the opposite statistics the other day. Not that I would be blaming people for leaving with the majority of mainstream pentecostalism being what it is today.

www.ifyoulikefredyoucantbeapentecostal.com

[MrDanger]

where are you getting your numbers stating people are leaving pentecostalism for other denominations? I just read the opposite statistics the other day. Not that I would be blaming people for leaving with the majority of mainstream pentecostalism being what it is today.

www.ifyoulikefredyoucantbeapentecostal.com

I've been there before. It's a link off of

www.ifyouareachristianyouhavetovoteforhuckabee.com

[Full Quiver]

It's not that ministers are saying go out and sin, have a hay day, live like the devil, be just like the heathens and live life to the fullest while your here but they are saying you cannot help but to sin each and every day, you cannot be holy, their is none righteous (no not one), perfection is not attainable, their is no godliness in this flesh, etc. By saying this, preaching this, teaching this you are licensing people to sin and are removing all the boundaries. I grew up Baptist; my family refuses to say you can be godly even though the NT says otherwise. Now they say if you do sin then their will be Earthly chastisement which includes anything and everything but no eternal repercussions except that your mansion might be smaller than someone else's. NO JOKE!!!
Again, I've never heard a pastor say go sin, but I have heard them say, religiously, you will sin and it will not effect your eternal soul. My dad was once posed this Scripture when he said everyone sins everyday, Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Dad denied it was in the Bible; when proven wrong he asked for his own Bible because he thought the minister that quoted it had some kind of trick Bible. It was KJV just like dad's. Only made dad mad and sin though.

[Steve]

where are you getting your numbers stating people are leaving pentecostalism for other denominations? I just read the opposite statistics the other day. Not that I would be blaming people for leaving with the majority of mainstream pentecostalism being what it is today.

www.ifyoulikefredyoucantbeapentecostal.com

I've been there before. It's a link off of

www.ifyouareachristianyouhavetovoteforhuckabee.com

Yo're my HERO!

[Poimen]

You have actually heard a Baptist Preacher or Pastor tell his congregation that they can live anyway they want sin all they want and still have a "Get out of hell free card." ?

Yes. And the minister in question did happen to be Baptist of some kind. But I would point out that not all baptist believe the same regarding OSAS. Furthermore Baptist are not the only proponents of the OSAS view.

No wonder so many are leaving the pentecostal churches in America and attending Baptist and other non-penetcostal churches.. Our attitude and judgemental spirit still prevails.

Seems judgmental to me of you to assume that my attitude and spirit is the same as the total "ours" you lumped me into.

BTW, I pastor an Independent Evangelical church -- essentially Bapticostal. Most of my congregation are from baptist churches or backgrounds. I even have a teacher who holds OSAS.

Usually the person is baptized, added to the church roll, and may or may not regularly attend and participate in the life of the church, and more often than not probably were not truly converted. They are false converts.

Our attitude of self-righteousness still prevails also.

You misjudge me yet again. I am actually relaying here the more classic sentiment among adherents to historic Calvinistic belief in Perseverance of the Saints (aka eternal security, OSAS, etc.). That is there view, and one I happen to agree with on most accounts.

Check out Ray Comforts sermon called "Hell's Best Kept Secret" for one source of confirmation.

So sad that you have given up on America.....

I've not given up on the power of the gospel to change the lives and hearts of Americans. I have mostly given up on the ideal of the Republic our Fathers birthed on this continent. The America of today is not the America they started or envisioned.

[Gerald Creasy]

I have mostly given up on the ideal of the Republic our Fathers birthed on this continent. The America of today is not the America they started or envisioned.

And it hasn't been, since 1865.

[Full Quiver]

I haven't given up on the America of our forefathers but I can't seem to find that America. Good ole president Lincoln, as Gerald alluded to, gave us a new America and that comment has nothing to do with race, emancipation, slavery, etc. Can we say Incorporation?

[one love]

Ok no insults to Fred Thompson

I like Fred and I also Like huckabee, I think we are kinda missing FQ point. I feel some like hucabee for the sole purpose that he is so outspoken about being a christian. If one uses this to advance his campain then it is nothing wrong in looking into his theology. I dont vote for one because he say's "Im a Christain" I vote because I feel they are the best for this nation. Christianity Is a big part of this country but just because one claims to be one does not make it so nor does it give a green light to align ourselves with that person based on there theological statements. Issues matter, what we want for america matters. A christian in office would be the best thing for this nation surely but just because one say they are a christian does not illiminate them from the things that would make them "president material" I am nt questioning Hucabee's christianity at all, as I said I like him but some will support him based on his words regarding faith alone.


OSAS is practiced as FQ and Poimen have said in many Baptist churches, but the actual thought on the subject varies from different baptist churches. Some feel that you have been chosen from the begining and nothing can stop you from being saved, just as some are destined to hell with no hope from birth by selection. Others feel that all have the ability to be saved and once you are saved nobody can "pluck you out of the hand of God" not even yourself, nothing you do will hinder you from heaven because you were saved. Some Baptist speak in toungues so I will not lump them into one theological base.

I feel pentecostals are clasified to much as "judgemental" because they state certain things are sin and if you sin it will send you to hell. This is judged as taking away the grace of God, I disagree. We have got to the point if we make a stand for anything we are judgemental, who are we to say this is wrong? Who are we to say this will send you to hell? Well we are nobody but the word tells it so.


So I do like Huckabee , I love his hope for the "fair tax plan". I think looking at spending is also relevant to where you are and the time you are there. Dolphan I am a conservative so I respect your thought on the spending, could you post the spending that bothers you. You may have done so already but if you could.
Let's remember making a point as FQ has does not mean he is attacking him by asking a question. FQ could you explain him lying about his "theology degree" could he have just meant he had a degree in religion etc. I would classify that as ok.
Whether Huckabee feel's OSAS or not is irrellevant to me I agree it is refreshing to have someone open regarding there faith yet as I said that is not a green light for all to support. But another point for him. We have to base our opinion on many things. If he win's they are going to tear him apart more then Bush regarding his faith.
Dont count out Rudy either he would do well I believe. I feel he is able to get the job done. Yet we must get back to point where we have christian principles back in America. I still like Fred as well but distant relative or not I am liking Huckabee the most.
As Poimen has said I fear for this nation.

We have allowed liberals to take the Lord out of almost everything. We just will not fight to allow drilling in our own country for oil to get away from the middle east supply, which will be our downfall. Let's not forget how we won the cold war. Had Russia's oil prices increased, got them in wars or supported those in war with them that they could never win. Basically destroying there economy. This is the play book the terrosit are going by to try to defeat us. They have publicly said so on Iranian TV.
But we are a Oil based nation and have more then enough resources here but because of "enviromentalist" nobody will push this issue. Next scariest thing "open borders" I will stop at that alone!!!!!