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[Mat]

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[car50]

This is my first post, however I have lurked through most of the board changes. And have thought about posting a reply; But until I saw the post from MAT on the new "proxy system" I always let the thought of posting pass.
Of all the changes that the CoGoP has made over the past 20 years or so I think that this is the worst change of all. I expect that if this system is not chaged the attendance at the GA will continue to decrease.

I don't know how to do the quote thing, but I do agree with what MAT said.

Why would anyone who is not a "Proxy voter" pay out the big bucks that it cost to attend the Assembly?

car50

[Pastor Bill]

If the only reason a person attends assembly is to cast their vote, then they are missing most of the purpose of that week.

Honeslty there are problems with the proxy system, but there are glaring problems with the way we've always done it as well, including the fact that the decisions of the church fell completely to the few who had the opportunity to attend assembly. The proxy system, though it may have faults, is an attempt to give every member an equal voice.

As long as we cannot afford to bring every member to one location (or multiple linked through technology) the old method will never be fair.

There are things that are complicated about trying to make this fair, and I'm not saying this is the best plan, but we've got to move a new direction.

As for Assembly attendance, the proxy system does still involve the group gathering together in one location. With the proxy system and current technology this would not even be needed if this was all about the voting, but there is more to the Assembly than that. (unless you are one that just drives in for the votes and leaves)

[car50]

If the only reason a person attends assembly is to cast their vote, then they are missing most of the purpose of that week.

If the purpose for having the Assembly, is not for conducting business that involves the worldwide church (CoGoP). What is its purpose??

But if your statement is right and conducting business is not the purpose of the week, that may be why only 2 or 3 thousand vote on the business.
That may explain why the International offices, State offices, and the local church are each doing their own thing.

Car50

[TW]

car50,
While I'm not COGOP, I have over the last three years come to understand your denomination better. I have become friends with a number of your brothers and sisters, and came to understand their thought processes. I believe that Pastor Bill was saying that while voting on church business is an important function at the GA, now the IA, more important functions also occur. The preaching and teaching, the networking, the fellowship, all are part of the Assembly. However, more importantly, the bonds that are formed in face to face meetings, the welding together of scattered flocks into the larger flock. While it would be almost impossible to assemble the entire COGOP denomination in one spot at one time, the Assembly gives an overview of the true strength of the organization, and the opportunity to strengthen ties. An overview that you can draw strength from, and carry that strength back to your local congregation to let them know that you are not alone in the land of the enemy. While your local church might be an outpost in the wilderness, it is backed up by a great army of believers. I believe that Pastor Bill was trying to say that it is these intangible, spiritual matters that are of the greatest importance.


TW

[Pastor Gary]

car50,
While I'm not COGOP, I have over the last three years come to understand your denomination better. I have become friends with a number of your brothers and sisters, and came to understand their thought processes. I believe that Pastor Bill was saying that while voting on church business is an important function at the GA, now the IA, more important functions also occur. The preaching and teaching, the networking, the fellowship, all are part of the Assembly. However, more importantly, the bonds that are formed in face to face meetings, the welding together of scattered flocks into the larger flock. While it would be almost impossible to assemble the entire COGOP denomination in one spot at one time, the Assembly gives an overview of the true strength of the organization, and the opportunity to strengthen ties. An overview that you can draw strength from, and carry that strength back to your local congregation to let them know that you are not alone in the land of the enemy. While your local church might be an outpost in the wilderness, it is backed up by a great army of believers. I believe that Pastor Bill was trying to say that it is these intangible, spiritual matters that are of the greatest importance.

You know, Terry, for a guy who attends an Assembly of God, you do a great job of catching the essential value IA attendance beyond the business and votes. You could work for COGOP's P.R. department.

Honestly, the voting stuff is way, WAY down on my list of priorities at the Assembly. Being relational by nature, for me it is a huge family reunion, and a place to meet and make new friends.

[Full Quiver]

I agree those are perks of the GA/IA but not the intentions from the beginning. History is with me and I think Mat and Car50 are speaking from that vantage point though I don't personally know them. I think the proxy system will work much better when local churches are fully allowed to select their own pastors without overseer appointments. It was done this way back in the day.

[Pastor Bill]

If the only reason a person attends assembly is to cast their vote, then they are missing most of the purpose of that week.

If the purpose for having the Assembly, is not for conducting business that involves the worldwide church (CoGoP). What is its purpose??

But if your statement is right and conducting business is not the purpose of the week, that may be why only 2 or 3 thousand vote on the business.
That may explain why the International offices, State offices, and the local church are each doing their own thing.

Car50

Yes and No, I never said conducting business was not the purpose, only that it is not the ONLY purpose, and I can't say it's the most important purpose since that business could be conducted many other ways that would be more inclusive than requiring a single location for an international organization. but there is alot to say for the fellowship and combined worship that occurs.

Why the International offices, State (or regional) offices, and local churches are each doing their own thing isn't really due to that, but more due to the fact that we, as an organization, have stopped trying to run the local church from Cleveland, and recognized that individual congregations and pastors need to seek God for themselves and the work that is before them. Pastor Gary's Church in Hawaii, my church in rural Kentucky, Scooter's Church in Florida, all are serving very different communities, we may hold to much of the same beliefs, but how we reach the harvest is very different, and if it wasn't, we would probably all be ineffective.

[Pastor Bill]

car50,
While I'm not COGOP, I have over the last three years come to understand your denomination better. I have become friends with a number of your brothers and sisters, and came to understand their thought processes. I believe that Pastor Bill was saying that while voting on church business is an important function at the GA, now the IA, more important functions also occur. The preaching and teaching, the networking, the fellowship, all are part of the Assembly. However, more importantly, the bonds that are formed in face to face meetings, the welding together of scattered flocks into the larger flock. While it would be almost impossible to assemble the entire COGOP denomination in one spot at one time, the Assembly gives an overview of the true strength of the organization, and the opportunity to strengthen ties. An overview that you can draw strength from, and carry that strength back to your local congregation to let them know that you are not alone in the land of the enemy. While your local church might be an outpost in the wilderness, it is backed up by a great army of believers. I believe that Pastor Bill was trying to say that it is these intangible, spiritual matters that are of the greatest importance.


TW

Wow TW, now if I could have just worded it that eloquently, you really captured it there!

[Linda]

Note: Since this summer's General Assembly is now on the board I am going to return for some discussion. Thanks Pastor Gary for not "dropping" me, of course you may wish you had.

THE PROXY SYSTEM

I was reviewing the mailing I just got this week concerning the Proxy System that will be in use at the next General Assembly, as well as the three reports (Final Documents). I will use other threads to express my views on the reports, but the Proxy System is the focus of this thread.

1 - The Church of God of Prophecy has again found yet another way to make being a Pastor less appealing (IMHO) by increasing the workload in implementing the process and placing the "educating" of the membership concerning the documents on our shoulders. (Note: I find the work of these committees rather verbose as well.)
2 - If we don't get it in on time, we have no vote. If we don't come to "one accord" we have no vote. If we get there, and have to change proxies the Overseer could say no, we have no vote. If we go to the Assembly and are not a proxy, we have no vote. Do I have this wrong?

3 - What if my church wants to amend a document? Is it just, yes or no, or we can't agree, so no vote? As an example, they (the committee) wants all pastor's to pay tithes on the gross amount of the allotment they receive without consideration of expenses, or at least this is expressed as the more "spiritual" level. Can we offer an amendment saying all church officials who have their expenses paid should tithe on that amount of money above their allotment?

Commentary: Yes, the COGOP is a global church and perhaps it is unfair that the General Assembly is held only in the southern part of the U.S.A. However, what is not global is the financial system of the church; it is heavy dependent on the U.S. I feel there is a direct relationship between the decline in attendance at the General Assembly and the decline in financial support for the International Offices. Is the Proxy System one less reason to go to the General Assembly? Is this system just one more reduction of the voice of the members and pastors? I have always heard that if people can't vote in the business of the church they will "vote" with empty offering plates and pews. Most of all, why does it seem that Pastors are asked to do more and more (proxy system, review system, financial system, etc.) yet we receive less and less in support from the multiple layers of government we are now controlled by?

Mat

I'm thinking vacation or exit strategy.

I, for one, like the idea that the "pastor" has to "educate" his/her flock about the business of the church for the proxy vote. Who better to do it. I attended one COGOP church that the pastor would not even let the members discuss any of the changes that the assembly made. To me this caused more confusion then getting it all out in the open for discussion. I agree, the proxy vote may have it's problems, but at least every member has a chance to voice his/her thoughts on the subjects for IA.

BTW, the 2010 IA will be held at Greensboro, NC July 27-Aug. 1st. Also, plans are being made to take it out of the southeast after 2010.

[Pastor Bill]

I agree those are perks of the GA/IA but not the intentions from the beginning. History is with me and I think Mat and Car50 are speaking from that vantage point though I don't personally know them. I think the proxy system will work much better when local churches are fully allowed to select their own pastors without overseer appointments. It was done this way back in the day.

You're right, at one point everything was done top down, I wouldn't be surprised to hear of a list of sermon outlines passed out for pastors to follow!

But that's not where we are now. Some churches do play a much larger part in selection of pastor (including my own) and GOOD overseers take into account the feelings and personality of the church as they are working to find the right pastor for each church. Maybe I am blessed more than most, but these things are what I am seeing constantly in my area.

[Dr. Ron]

My dad who had a 7th grade education told me once...." If you beging with a flawed premise, then the conclusion will always be flawed". Actually what he said was...."if the foundaton is square and plum and level, then when you get to the rafters you won't have a problem making them fit. One pattern will cut them all exact."

He was speaking about what all of you are missing. Voting always has and always will cause division. It creates winners and losers. It is not found in the NT as a process for making decisions. So you are beginning with a "flawed premise"......you will continue to have a "flawed conclusion".

I refer to MAT'S post and it shows that the premise is already causing division......God bless you all as you vote to decide how to vote.


Much ado about nothing.....and PG says he doesn't care.....he just likes haniging out!!! lol

[Pastor Gary]

Much ado about nothing.....and PG says he doesn't care.....he just likes hanging out!!! lol

The hanging out is the BEST part. Ron, you know we all have spent as much (or more) time in the halls than in the HALL.

[Billy n NC]

Mat Said
Is this system just one more reduction of the voice of the members and pastors?

Not sure why you think that. Looks to me it gives a bigger voice for those that do not nor ever have attended the GA.

I have always heard that if people can't vote in the business of the church they will "vote" with empty offering plates and pews.

Maybe that is true. People do like to be involved. Thus the proxy system is an attempt to involve this group. Even if it is doomed or a failed attempt, It is better to have tried and failed than do things the way we have always done.

Most of all, why does it seem that Pastors are asked to do more and more (proxy system, review system, financial system, etc.) yet we receive less and less in support from the multiple layers of government we are now controlled by?

Well it is my understanding that pastors want this. They want more control at the local level. So HQ/Int-offices have been trying to make it
that way. Less money is being sent to HQs (both State and Int-Offices)than it ever has.

Mat also said;
I'm thinking vacation or exit strategy.

This is not new. Has nothing with the Proxy System. You have mentioned this several times before.

Pastor Gary said.
You know, Terry, for a guy who attends an Assembly of God, you do a great job of catching the essential value IA attendance beyond the business and votes. You could work for COGOP's P.R. department.

Amen

Honestly, the voting stuff is way, WAY down on my list of priorities at the Assembly. Being relational by nature, for me it is a huge family reunion, and a place to meet and make new friends.

Pastor Gary you are correct on this. Fellowship, Sermons, Talent and meeting new friends would be on the top of my list also.

Pastor Bill said.
Why the International offices, State (or regional) offices, and local churches are each doing their own thing isn't really due to that, but more due to the fact that we, as an organization, have stopped trying to run the local church from Cleveland, and recognized that individual congregations and pastors need to seek God for themselves and the work that is before them. Pastor Gary's Church in Hawaii, my church in rural Kentucky, Scooter's Church in Florida, all are serving very different communities, we may hold to much of the same beliefs, but how we reach the harvest is very different, and if it wasn't, we would probably all be ineffective.

This became very apparent from HQs/Int-Offices back in 1996. Twelve years ago the theme for that GA was Local Vibrant Churches. HQs should not be micromanaging local churches. The staff in Cleveland have no idea what local church in Hawaii, KY, NC or even AZ need to do to minister to there community. Being a resource is what HQs emphasized at that GA in 96. Thus began the changes such as pastoral reveiw, financial and staff realignment. Is it perfect? Nope But neither is anyone else.

[PastorDaniel]

He was speaking about what all of you are missing. Voting always has and always will cause division. It creates winners and losers. It is not found in the NT as a process for making decisions. So you are beginning with a "flawed premise"......you will continue to have a "flawed conclusion."

How does your church handle business? How are decisions made? Just Curious?