Anybody read those reports?

[Pastor Gary]

The Finance and Stewardship Committee Reports and the Biblical Doctrine and Polity Committee Reports are posted in "FINAL" form at COGOP.ORG.

Anybody read them? Want to dissect them and offer some views?

I'll say this: I, personally, regret that we are moving more toward hierarchical, institutional, more-lists-of-rules, more reports, more committees, more evaluations, more paperwork, more "do-this-or-face-consequences" structure... and further from the kind of missional, relational movement we need to be.

))) SIGH ((((

[cndlou]

I've read them... And I don't like the idea of them giving mission money to North America... For example, the poor area of Peru is a self sufficient nation...not eligible for mission money... But with this ruling, it will allow "rich" America to get mission money... I am sorry, but some of these places (in America) need let go of some of their wealth before you start taking it from the poor people around the world... Some of these North American Overseers drive super nice cars, have all expenses paid, and live in a nice house (some own two) plus get a nice salary... The money needs to come from there (or somewhere first) Just my thoughts on the matter.... not that they count for anything.....

[deb]

Ministry Evaluation
The 91st Assembly of 2000 passed a resolution that this committee on the Biblical Doctrine and Polity (BDP) implement an evaluation/review for our ministry. The 2004 General Assembly added further clarification and simplification to the process.

Overseer Evaluation Process
Given the fact that national/state/regional overseers are evaluated every four years (e.g. 2008), the next evaluation is scheduled in 2012. This supersedes previous rulings.

Pastoral Evaluation Process
Given the fact that a pastoral evaluation was scheduled (e.g. 2007), the next pastoral evaluation is scheduled in 2011. Thereafter, evaluations will be performed every four years. This supersedes previous rulings.

Now that's how you get things done - just put it off every 4 years and say "this supersedes previous rulings".

Ministerial Appeal Process

Good luck if you’re ever in that situation…

My Conclusion
Notice how many times these words are used: We - recommend, encourage, consider, suggest.
Did you know that even if the “recommendations” are approved and go into the Policy Manual, in the eyes of GHQ and their legal counsel, they legally remain just that – “recommendations”, “encouragements”, “considerations”, “suggestions”. They will tell the judge that the Policy Manual is simply a guide line.

From the Encarta Dictionary: (Notice certain words I put in bold)

guide line (noun)
1. official advice

an official recommendation indicating how something should be done or what sort of action should be taken in a particular circumstance

[Dr. Ron]

HO hummmm. Same old same old....

When you can't or won't fix something, confuse, confound, convolute, compound, and just generally ignore the issue.

Pastor Gary, I hope you really didn't expect it to be any different,

They started digging this hole years ago....and they think that by digging it
deeper, it will cease to be a hole.

If the Premise is flawed, the conclusion will be also.

[Dr. Ron]

P.S.
It's the only way to perpetuate the existance of a centralized government that has been obsolete and un-necessary for years.

They should be only a resourse center and nothing more.

[EagerBeaver]

Shoot, I don't like this stuff any more than the next guy.

But I believe they did a good thing in recognizing North America can now be considered a "mission field" just like the rest of the church. Hopefully the churches that can't financially sustain themselves will now be better served to use their money to keep their lights on rather than send the money to Bangalore, India.

No disrespect to those on the board who have hearts for missions, I love overseas missions, but I never understood why COGOP churches that couldn't operate in the black continue to send money to overseas when they need to sustain themselves, then once they are stable turn around and be able to donate in a greater capacity later.

Also I think GO needing 10% of each church's tithe is a bit much.

[free]

EB said:

Also I think GO needing 10% of each church's tithe is a bit much.

Agreed...I have always felt that if we're going to send tithes away from the local church then it should be a 5%/5% split between the state office and the internation offices.

I understand the "arguments" from IO but I would much rather send support to my state/region...Just my opinion but I'm sure it won't happen any time soon.

[Brenda]

Absolutely Beav.

[EagerBeaver]

I seriously never understood why individual COGOP churches for so long operated as local permutations of a centralized church, rather than operating independently and having a greater capability to become self-sufficient.

I currently attend an Assembly of God church and while their beliefs are VERY similar to COGOP, their leadership structure and hierarchy is different. The AG headquarters (which is about 10 miles up the road from me) exists solely as a governing body over decisions made in the church, and that's it. Take this from the AG website:

Within the fellowship of the Assemblies of God there are two classifications of churches - General Council affiliated churches and district affiliated churches. General Council affiliated churches enjoy full autonomy, having developed to the point of where they are self-governing and self-supporting. These fundamental principles have been catalysts for growth in the Fellowship. District affiliated churches are those which have not yet developed to the point where they qualify for full autonomy. All assemblies are required to adhere to the Statement of Fundamental Truths and a biblical pattern of conduct.

Amazing. Fully-governed and self-supporting within the local churches. And if they're not to the point where they can sustain themselves, everyone pitches in and helps them out.

Why can't COGOP do something similar and just hand full autonomy to the local church? If in COGOP's case, headquarters took more of a backseat role and simply operated as an executive committee, I think we could see some of our smaller churches prosper.

[paul]

Shoot, I don't like this stuff any more than the next guy.

But I believe they did a good thing in recognizing North America can now be considered a "mission field" just like the rest of the church. Hopefully the churches that can't financially sustain themselves will now be better served to use their money to keep their lights on rather than send the money to Bangalore, India.

No disrespect to those on the board who have hearts for missions, I love overseas missions, but I never understood why COGOP churches that couldn't operate in the black continue to send money to overseas when they need to sustain themselves, then once they are stable turn around and be able to donate in a greater capacity later.



Also I think GO needing 10% of each church's tithe is a bit much.

Statistically It is estimated that Christians in the US earn 12.3 Trillion dollars per year. Of that about 1.7% is given to the church and of that about 5.4 % is given to missions and of that about 1% is given to reach the areas of the world that are unreached.

so In my oponion no organization or denom is doing anywhere enough for missions. But I will say that IMHO I think many are going about it all wrong in how they handed their funds for missions.

When I was in COGOP I pioneered new churches and I remember well how hard it was and the struggels I had.

I would have a hard time blaming the financial shortfalls on the funds sent to the mission field.

The above precentages are from 2006. From: World Missions in Pasadena Ca.( not our organization) The Joshua Project and World Maps.

[paul]

The Finance and Stewardship Committee Reports and the Biblical Doctrine and Polity Committee Reports are posted in "FINAL" form at COGOP.ORG.

Anybody read them? Want to dissect them and offer some views?

I'll say this: I, personally, regret that we are moving more toward hierarchical, institutional, more-lists-of-rules, more reports, more committees, more evaluations, more paperwork, more "do-this-or-face-consequences" structure... and further from the kind of missional, relational movement we need to be.

))) SIGH ((((

Rationale: There is currently no revenue stream at the General Presbyters’ Offices for ministry
training, church planting, or evangelization. Current budgeting at the International Offices only
allocates for the General Presbyters’ allotments and their office operations. Currently, the
National/Regional/State Overseers pay their tithes to the International Offices.

Something is totally upside down. And one would wonder why there is such a struggle. I would think that these area would be the first and major concern.

[EagerBeaver]

Rationale: There is currently no revenue stream at the General Presbyters’ Offices for ministry training, church planting, or evangelization. Current budgeting at the International Offices only allocates for the General Presbyters’ allotments and their office operations. Currently, the National/Regional/State Overseers pay their tithes to the International Offices.

And to think that was the first sentence, the leading phrase of that entire document.

WOWOW.

[paul]

Rationale: There is currently no revenue stream at the General Presbyters’ Offices for ministry training, church planting, or evangelization. Current budgeting at the International Offices only allocates for the General Presbyters’ allotments and their office operations. Currently, the National/Regional/State Overseers pay their tithes to the International Offices.

And to think that was the first sentence, the leading phrase of that entire document.

WOWOW.

It is kinda of like going from being a resource to a White Elephant. Also for many of us who are older remember the time when HQ received 10% State received 10% and if their was a surplus it was divided 33 1/2 among GH, Shq, and the local church.

It seems more funds now are going to the local body yet their is so much struggle. Without vision ( local ) without knowlege ( where you are header, your purpose, mission, goal) you will perish. I agree with Dr. Ron, that even if the vision of the One Church was wrong, and the vision came down from HQ. At least there was one. to many churches are content with just being another church sitting on another corner. If you do not have a purpose, vision, goal and know that your church is there to have a impact on the community...you are spenning your wheels. to many pastors that are pastoring as a hobby and not a divine call.

From reading the reports here it seems that GH is like the american dollar....in a free fall

[free]

When the financial change was made many years ago it was supposed to leave more $$ with the local church and the hope was that local churches would then support struggling churches and states (as I understand it)...It seems that the opposite happened but what did they really expect?

I believe that IO will eventuall shut down due to lack of funds to pay salaries, etc...What does everyone else think?

[PastorDaniel]

When the financial change was made many years ago it was supposed to leave more $$ with the local church and the hope was that local churches would then support struggling churches and states (as I understand it)...It seems that the opposite happened but what did they really expect?

I believe that IO will eventuall shut down due to lack of funds to pay salaries, etc...What does everyone else think?

Maybe...but I think it's more likely that we'll get closer and closer to the COG that is headquartered down the street and we'll just be annexed in. Our officials will be offered places on their executive committee and it'll just be a corporate takeover.