How much better off since last GA?

[PastorDaniel]

And like AtlantaBishop used to say "shoot me...you can't kill me"

[paul]

Thanks for the clarification Paul. I'm glad we could correspond with no one getting mad. One Love even laughed at my flag running comment and he's TCOG.

Response: Next thing you know he'll be running through here with a stolen church flag! WELL GLORY!!!

now that is just to funny

[DaJudge]

You just comfirmed what I have been saying. There has been surface changes, but no real heart or attitude change. This attitude that we can learn nothing from anyone other than ourselves only goes to prove the exclusiveness is still alive and well. I will continue to express my concerns and give my imput, until I am asked to leave.

As far as coming back....what would you do with me ? the ministry that God has given me. Would I have to bring all 700 churches I oversee under the COGOP banner ? Would all my schools have to start teaching your doctrine ? No thanks. I was raised cogop, my parents, my children...still have a love for it that you would never understand because you do not understand an Apostolic Ministry.

As far as sticking it out during the hard times. Son, you will never kow. I watched so many of my friends lives, marraiges, and ministry crushed by self serving so called leaders over them. You don't even want to go there. Lies, cheating, stealing, abuses that abounded.

I understand that you are bitter. I have no animosity towards you. The thing is that criticism from an outsider is sort of like when somebody badmouths your family. You don't mind your brother bad mouthing your crazy uncle, but when somebody not related to you does it, well, quite frankly, it grates on your nerves.

[one love]

You didnt see me? Man you must have missed it I am pretty easy going Brother, I know the context it was said. I was laughing

[one love]

Paul not sure if you missed this but when did you leave the COGOP what year?

[paul]

You just comfirmed what I have been saying. There has been surface changes, but no real heart or attitude change. This attitude that we can learn nothing from anyone other than ourselves only goes to prove the exclusiveness is still alive and well. I will continue to express my concerns and give my imput, until I am asked to leave.

As far as coming back....what would you do with me ? the ministry that God has given me. Would I have to bring all 700 churches I oversee under the COGOP banner ? Would all my schools have to start teaching your doctrine ? No thanks. I was raised cogop, my parents, my children...still have a love for it that you would never understand because you do not understand an Apostolic Ministry.

As far as sticking it out during the hard times. Son, you will never kow. I watched so many of my friends lives, marraiges, and ministry crushed by self serving so called leaders over them. You don't even want to go there. Lies, cheating, stealing, abuses that abounded.

I understand that you are bitter. I have no animosity towards you. The thing is that criticism from an outsider is sort of like when somebody badmouths your family. You don't mind your brother bad mouthing your crazy uncle, but when somebody not related to you does it, well, quite frankly, it grates on your nerves.

check your pm

[Cpt. Jack]

Scooter thanks. You said

Response: Next thing you know he'll be running through here with a stolen church flag! WELL GLORY!!!

I had to laugh out loud.

Cpt Jack

[RamboPreacher]

I was told that discretion means "no".

continuing to love my local church, anyhoots.

is our church better off? can't say. changed pastors at about that time as well. it is my pleasure to serve God, no matter who is our local pastor. there are hurting people that I will continue to pray for and be there for as much as possible. am I doing it for them? yes, absolutely. The people in our congregation, especially the "traditionalist" (read as, the ones that have been in COGOP all their lives, and grew up in it), that were rejected or are otherwise not "member" are my friends. My wife and I will do whatever we can to make them comfortable in our congregation.

[scooter]

I had to laugh out loud.

Cpt Jack

Response: I'm here to serve!

Great to see you post.

[Cpt. Jack]

BACK TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION.

THE Church which I attend is much better off. We have open our doors to what was not "Church of God materal" before. These folks have come on board and are a intrical part of this church. The changes at the last IA have opened a greater ministral opportunity here.

Cpt Jack

[Pastor Bill]

and cogop backed you. hmmm, sounds like maybe its not the same church that paul and ron remember.

talk to others on this board who are in similar situation and the church has not move forward very much. Also what movement has been done is mostly on the local level. Recounting several statements it appears that GH is running fast and furious to try to keep pace with the local church. So yep it does seem like the same-o-same-o

BUT isn't that what you have promoted? Local churches following God, and the organization being more of a resource center working to keep up with the diversity of locally run more independent churches? (I thought this was a good thing?)

[paul]

and cogop backed you. hmmm, sounds like maybe its not the same church that paul and ron remember.

talk to others on this board who are in similar situation and the church has not move forward very much. Also what movement has been done is mostly on the local level. Recounting several statements it appears that GH is running fast and furious to try to keep pace with the local church. So yep it does seem like the same-o-same-o

BUT isn't that what you have promoted? Local churches following God, and the organization being more of a resource center working to keep up with the diversity of locally run more independent churches? (I thought this was a good thing?)

Prayerfully without being misunderstood I will comment.

Yes you are right and certinally this is what I believe in strong local churches. My reference is that IMHO it should be the GH that is setting the pace. Personally it appears that the local churches are setting the pace.

[Dr. Ron]

I extend the utmost Christian respect to you all. I have no bitterness in my heart. I have no axe to grind. I, with Paul , was just trying to offer a prospective from another vantage point which I would think "seeking " people would appreciate.

As for leaving during the hard times....you certainly can't be talking about me. I stayed through everything except the changing of the D"&R issue. I was there in the fray for the MAT replacement. the ring issue, the Concerned Issue. and many more,.

I did my time and earned the right to say anything I please about the issues you now face. I have offered my hand in friendship to COGOP since leaving to those in authority to walk them through some of the way they are percieved by others......to no avail....The attitude still is ....We don't need to know that ....we can handle it.

My love for COGOP is still strong. It was my cradle. My only concern is that from my vantage point, and Paul's , we see it NOT doing what we know they are capable of doing......how sad...

But I will not accept the criticism that I left "before " the hard times....What a foolish attempt at indictment. I expected better from a judge.

[Pastor Bill]

As far as coming back....what would you do with me ? the ministry that God has given me. Would I have to bring all 700 churches I oversee under the COGOP banner ? Would all my schools have to start teaching your doctrine ?

Hey Paul, No offense and this is not an attack. I'm just curious about your statement here. What doctrine are you talking about? Our doctrine lines up with every other pentecostal denomination, organization, or association I know and many independents. So what are you referring too? All of the crazy stuff left with the last several splits.

All the flag runners are in TCOG now.

I will use a better word. Polity would fit better. Simply meaning...please no one take this wrong. In many of the organizational church schools that we encounter are set up more to teach the denom polity practices and sprinkled with bible doctrine. That was my reference to my old BTI days. It was designed IMHO to indoctrinate me more into the organizational methods, polity, and operation and a little Biblical History and the 29 teachings. And in doing so make us better minister. My wife and I both graduated and we had some classmates who went far in the cogop. A Varlack and some who did not.( by the way I still have all three term books on my shelf. )

when I encounter the JW or MOrmons overseas. You realize quickly that they are their to Mormonize that country...thus my reference to Planting the flag. Reaching an area for the organization rather than Christ.

Sometimes organizations will come in and offer Pastors support if they will change the name over their door, change their doctrinal stance. And allow their views to be taught. that was my reference. So if it was taken wrong I am sorry. One group in particular has offered several of our pastors in the Philippines support if they would not use musical instruments in the church and change the name.

The doctrinal beliefs of our organization does not differ from cogops in general. Our polity and financial structure does.

I hope this clears up any misunderstandings

Paul I guess what gets frustrating, is that we really have moved away from that, yet the perceptions is still based on what you saw at BTI years ago. We aren't the organization we used to be (and thank God for that) but it's hard to live down that reputation when even those who care and struggled against it still believe the reputation more than the current changes.

Maybe I am being naive and things are different outside of KY and my realm of vision, but man everything you are describing is in the past and we are moving ahead. You mentioned a while back in this thread that if you came back the COGOP would probably make you bring all the churches under you etc. and take control. That's not completely true, we had an independent minister from Louisville come speak at our last state minister's convention, we are partnering with him in reaching that area, and learning what we can from his success. He is not now, nor will he be anytime soon a part of the CoGoP, but that isn't the focus anymore.

Please we have enough trouble from inside the org. getting away from the past, please don't add to it.

[Pastor Bill]

I was told that discretion means "no".

continuing to love my local church, anyhoots.

is our church better off? can't say. changed pastors at about that time as well. it is my pleasure to serve God, no matter who is our local pastor. there are hurting people that I will continue to pray for and be there for as much as possible. am I doing it for them? yes, absolutely. The people in our congregation, especially the "traditionalist" (read as, the ones that have been in COGOP all their lives, and grew up in it), that were rejected or are otherwise not "member" are my friends. My wife and I will do whatever we can to make them comfortable in our congregation.

Interesting, I was told discretion means discretion. I know someone somewhere thought it meant no, and I believethere were some discussions going on among SOs trying to even that out across the board. We've been expecting delays, but things have went smoothly so far (although it's never a quick process, and is taking awhile). Glad to hear there are those around who are seeing things move forward. That is good news for us.