Anybody read those reports?

[dawgs10]

its not their job to grow local churchs.

And it's not the local churches job to bail out financially mismanaged North American regions. The rest of your comments have nothing to do with this discussion.

God Bless You- Sam Smith

it has everything to do with this thread. the fact is no complains about cleveland unless they do not want to send money. lots of steps have been inplace for a few years to correct what has went wrong in cleveland with money issues. there are many checks and balances in place now. people are using the problems in the past as a reason not to support the IO. thats all it is.

[rjjunior]

Secondly, there is a grave lack of rotation on these committees.

A little more rotation might be nice, but as far as I know, they are all Godly men with the Church's best interest in mind. A lack of rotation does not equal near-sightedness or agenda building.

Third, integrity is an issue. The investment scandals, misappropriation and our right theft that occurred in the last two decades have not resulted in any fundamental change in the cast of characters...

If a leader in your church is guilty of misappropriations, do you lose your job? What about the other leaders? I believe having a "heads must roll" mentality is unhealthy. Identify the reasons for the indiscretion and correct them. If people are willfully implicit in the errors, by all means, take action. Otherwise, allow Godly men and women to continue on in the work. Whenever leaders in my church have needed discipline, I took some of the blame, but I'm glad I didn't have to share the same fate as them.

Sometimes I get the feeling that some of these folks would not attend one of our churches if we did not pay them to.

Well, how many pastors would attend our churches if we didn't pay them?

PS As to Pastoral Reviews, I have now lived through two (kind of like WWI & WWII).

Sorry yours was rough. Both of mine were edifying and helpful. Perhaps a stronger focus on the rationale for the reviews would help.

To me the whole review thing has loosed a spirit of criticism in every level of the church.

The spirit of criticism has been active long before the review process was instituted. (been reading this forum long? ) I'm no IO apologist, there are plenty of things I would love to see changed, but when I find myself with a growing laundry list of complaints, I have to stop and check myself.

[justsam]

it has everything to do with this thread. the fact is no complains about cleveland unless they do not want to send money.

That's your opinion. I haven't complained about Cleveland or money going to Cleveland, I am talking about funds going to North American regions.

God Bless You- Sam Smith

[dawgs10]

it has everything to do with this thread. the fact is no complains about cleveland unless they do not want to send money.

That's your opinion. I haven't complained about Cleveland or money going to Cleveland, I am talking about funds going to North American regions.

God Bless You- Sam Smith

thats money from cleveland, dispersed to north america. and its about time.

[Faith rider]

[quote="Mat"]Committee Members

All these committees are heavy weighted towards the overseer and IO levels in respect of their membership. Yet when you look at their reports and diagram everything is dependent on the local church.

FR writes:
Always has been, always will be.


MAT wrote:
I feel that half of these committees should be comprised of fulltime pastors.

FR writes: Whay not have pastors from all size churches, including the ones that are bi-vocal.

MAT:
Secondly, there is a grave lack of rotation on these committees. Thus, power basis and developed outside of the government structure of the church (which IMHO is over structured anyway). It would appear that too often these committees function as an advocate for individual views or careers.

FR writes:
I've never seen where the local church votes for or selects any State or International overseer/director. WHY NOT?

Mat

PS As to Pastoral Reviews, I have now lived through two (kind of like WWI & WWII). I would rather do a straight stay or go vote instead. I would like see that with overseers, presbyters and IO staff also. Less paperwork, quicker and I feel more telling. To me the whole review thing has loosed a spirit of criticism in every level of the church.[/quote]


FR writes: To me it's a joke. Most people evaulate the pastor every service.

And if IO HQ wants more money, why don't they have bake sales, chicken dinners & sell KK donuts.

MAT, you made some good points.

[oletimer]

Not trying to high-jack this thread, but I have notice several have tried to post quotes andf ended with quote marks but not as quotes. I had to learn for trial and error.

But if you will high light the part that you want to quote and then go to quote mark, it will come up as a quote. Hope this helps.

God Bless

[justsam]

it has everything to do with this thread. the fact is no complains about cleveland unless they do not want to send money.

That's your opinion. I haven't complained about Cleveland or money going to Cleveland, I am talking about funds going to North American regions.

God Bless You- Sam Smith

thats money from cleveland, dispersed to north america. and its about time.

Unless the International Offices have started printing their own money, whatever funds they disburse come from somewhere else: namely from local churches-most of which cannot pay their own pastor a full-time salary. If you and your church are foolish enough to send harvest partner funds to a North American region, knock yourself out. Our church is going to keep sending our money to Bishop Boone in Thailand to support our orphanage.

God Bless You- Sam Smith

[free]

dawgs10 wrote:

it has everything to do with this thread. the fact is no complains about cleveland unless they do not want to send money. lots of steps have been inplace for a few years to correct what has went wrong in cleveland with money issues. there are many checks and balances in place now. people are using the problems in the past as a reason not to support the IO. thats all it is.

With talk like that you might just get offered a job at IO!

I've got complaints about Cleveland but as long as I am a minister and my church is part of this organization I'll do what I'm ask to do. My disagreements don't stop my church from sending our 10% each month...We sent almost $40,000.00 tithes last year and several thousand dollars for missions, etc.

Do I think I could make better use of that kind of money on a local level? You bet I do...You mentioned a several million dollar building program...We're in one ourselves...We've got 25 acres of land valued at approx. $1 million dollars...By the time we finish our vision we'll be close to $10 million. How much has/will IO help us? $0.00!!

[Mat]

removed

[Billy n NC]

ITEM 1 To them, it I read what my members are telling me, is that it feels more like a "one-way" street, they just don't feel apart of the overall movement anymore.

Item 2 A;What is in the reports that are designed to strengthen the local church and the pastor? B:Is there help for obtaining loans to build? The introduction of software to assist our volunteer church treasurers? Some funding for a retirement program? C:A name change for the organization (had to throw that one in)? D:Can an overseer's incorrect removal of a pastor really be overturned? E:Or is the only blessing available the blessing of "obedience", as in obey them over you in the Lord?

Mat

Item 1: Could it be they feel like One-Way because of the Wall of Animosity you have towards IO??? If you wonder where I get that. Reread most of your post over the past few years.

Item 2: Wow. So you do have some positve suggestions bottled up and being dispersed. Some good thoughts in there..

A: What reports do you speak of?

B: Yes that would be a good suggestion. As Local Churches, especially smaller ones need to grow, have resource list/funds that cater to churches available. We may even have COGOP members who could provide this service.

C: Name Change Yes it is needed.

D: Once the pastoral review procedures get ironed out, there should be an appeals process up the chain.

E: Blessing of obedience does not have to be without questions. Accountablity should be foremost.

[dawgs10]

it has everything to do with this thread. the fact is no complains about cleveland unless they do not want to send money.

That's your opinion. I haven't complained about Cleveland or money going to Cleveland, I am talking about funds going to North American regions.

God Bless You- Sam Smith

thats money from cleveland, dispersed to north america. and its about time.

Unless the International Offices have started printing their own money, whatever funds they disburse come from somewhere else: namely from local churches-most of which cannot pay their own pastor a full-time salary. If you and your church are foolish enough to send harvest partner funds to a North American region, knock yourself out. Our church is going to keep sending our money to Bishop Boone in Thailand to support our orphanage.

God Bless You- Sam Smith

so you do admit to not submitting yourself or your church to system that your IO feels lead put in place. (sounds indepdent to me).. better look out paul and ron will saying good things about you.

[justsam]

so you do admit to not submitting yourself or your church to system that your IO feels lead put in place. (sounds indepdent to me).. better look out paul and ron will saying good things about you.

I don't know what you problem is, but our church pays it's 10% to GHQ and the last time I checked churches are free to designate their harvest partner funds wherever they choose.

When you are able to discuss this issue without resorting to slimy personal attacks and false accusations, I will be glad to respond to you again.

God Bless You- Sam Smith

[car50]

MAT wrote,
I think you would agree that this is why it is important for the policies mandated by the Assembly have the support and confidence of the local churches.

Car50 response,
It is of great importrance that the local church have confidence in the policies mandated by the Assembly. I beleve that this lack of confidence is why the attendance is down at our Assembly and Conventions.

MAT wrote,
Many have been around long enough to know that the relationship with the state and international offices has changed. To them, it I read what my members are telling me, is that it feels more like a "one-way" street, they just don't feel apart of the overall movement anymore."

Car50 response,
That is so true, and you don't have to go 2000 miles from Cleveland to find that feeling among church people. I know that it is in more than one church in the state of TN.

It is because of that feeling of not being part of the overall movement, that I started another thread seeking ideas on restructering as a possible way to address to the problem.

car50

[Mat]

removed

[paul]

it has everything to do with this thread. the fact is no complains about cleveland unless they do not want to send money.

That's your opinion. I haven't complained about Cleveland or money going to Cleveland, I am talking about funds going to North American regions.

God Bless You- Sam Smith

thats money from cleveland, dispersed to north america. and its about time.

Unless the International Offices have started printing their own money, whatever funds they disburse come from somewhere else: namely from local churches-most of which cannot pay their own pastor a full-time salary. If you and your church are foolish enough to send harvest partner funds to a North American region, knock yourself out. Our church is going to keep sending our money to Bishop Boone in Thailand to support our orphanage.

God Bless You- Sam Smith

so you do admit to not submitting yourself or your church to system that your IO feels lead put in place. (sounds indepdent to me).. better look out paul and ron will saying good things about you.

Sam, did I ever tell you all those good things I think about you.

dawgs10 are you implying that my saying good things about Sam would be tied to him not being in submission to IO ?

What I see as an outsider of COGOP, from the many post here in this forum is a sense of detachment of the local churches from the International in varing degrees.

I firmly believe that it is not meerely a money issue. As I stated before you went from giving 20% right of the top to IO, ans S.O and spliting the surplus. To whereever you are now at 10%. Yet from the post I read many areas are not growing, their is financial problems. Many areas are suffering from lack of Pastors. To me this goes beyond a money problem. This is not critisum but simply an observation.

Our organization is different from cogop in that all our funds received is totally on a volinteer basis. Our pastors tithe to their local church. The local church is not required to tithe to our office, but most do above and beyond the tithe, ( I believe that it is because it is their choice.) It is all based on a shared relationship and joint committment to one another and the vision of reaching out to the lost.

One must always be careful of straining at the nat and swollowing the camel.