Lent is now Christian Ramadan.

[Mole_J]

The Dutch have renamed Lent as Christian Ramadan. They felt like the young people know more about Islam than Christianity.

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[crispfin]

It's probably true that in a post-Christian society like theirs (and ours) most younger people DO know more about Ramadan than Lent. Which I would think Protestants would be happy about because we all know Lent is just an empty ritual of denying yourself and corporate fasting for Christ which Jesus in no way would have ever wanted us to do because we all know better right?

[dolfan]

Still, it is a sad commentary on the influence of Christianity that, in the nation of Calvinism's perhaps strongest sphere of influence, the land where, tragically, a war was fought for some 80 years between them and Catholics, more people are now familiar with Islamic traditions than Christian ones. Europe, IMO, is lost forever.

[crispfin]

Europe, IMO, is lost forever.

I don't know if they're lost forever, but they've obviously outgrown the idea of Christendom and the national church. I think many know more about Ramadan than Lent not because they have rejected Christianity, but that the church no longer communicates to them in a way they understand. If they've heard about Christianity, it's the children's version churches tend to market and they believe they already know it and see it as immature and irrelevent. Islam seems a strong, demanding faith with seemingly more depth. They know more about it not only because it, along with other religions, seems more interesting, but Islam is probably more prominently featured in the media.

[dolfan]

Europe, IMO, is lost forever.

I don't know if they're lost forever, but they've obviously outgrown the idea of Christendom and the national church. I think many know more about Ramadan than Lent not because they have rejected Christianity, but that the church no longer communicates to them in a way they understand. If they've heard about Christianity, it's the children's version churches tend to market and they believe they already know it and see it as immature and irrelevent. Islam seems a strong, demanding faith with seemingly more depth. They know more about it not only because it, along with other religions, seems more interesting, but Islam is probably more prominently featured in the media.

When I say 'lost', I don't mean simply lost to Christianity, but to western thought. Europe is so thoroughly Islamic, and by extension, Arabic in thought, now that the great Christian roots of its past (and, by extension, Western in thought) are far below any surface never to see the light of day again.

[crispfin]

When I say 'lost', I don't mean simply lost to Christianity, but to western thought. Europe is so thoroughly Islamic, and by extension, Arabic in thought, now that the great Christian roots of its past (and, by extension, Western in thought) are far below any surface never to see the light of day again.

I know Muslims make up a large minority in Europe, but I'm not sure Europe's thought structure has become Arabic. I'd say they (Europe) have more of a "postmodern" relativistic worldview which definately clashes with the Islamic viewpoint. And I think we need to be careful about linking Christianity entirely to Western thought. Although for most of us, it is a definate part of our Christianity, there are definately expressions of Christianity that did not buy into Western thought. Eastern Orthodoxy anyone?

[dolfan]

Europe was the west, at least from Rome westward. Its ways of conceiving the world were influenced by the RCC, (of course, in turn by Greece and Judaism itself, certainly not western per se). But, Europe gave life to a set of ideas about law, civil society, economics, etc., that became our own, esp. the British and French ways. The strength of Europe in a moral sense was Judeo-Christian. Now, Europe is in a moral morass. It is not Christian; as you say, it is post-Christian. But, post-Christian for Europe is rapidly becoming Islamic-friendly, which is a euphemism for surrendering to Islamic lust for power. That lust for power is drastically different from Christian philosophy, which exists on the premise of giving power away to the powerless. (Not that Europe or any other nation/continent/society has ever truly done so, but it was a prevalent element of western thought.) Islamism seeks to dominate through force; it is inherent to "the faith" of Islam. Christianity seeks to submit through love, and while "Christian nations" have also set the bar for exercising raw, unjust power for great stretches of time, "the faith" has always been a countercultural firewall to it (less so at some times than others). That undercurrent of an understanding that we have personal, moral obligations to benefit each other in society made commerce and liberty possible. Not so with Islam. The obligations are submission through fear and power for their own sake, and if any progress occurs then it is the blessing of Allah on that exercise of raw power. But, if no progress as we understand it happens, then it doesn't matter since the real goal is not the uplifting of your neighbor but the integrity of the power structure. That is why Europe is, IMO, lost now. It has no cohesive narrative of its reasons for being, and Islam is providing one.

[PastorDaniel]

All I can say is that, in the area I grew up in, "Lent" was always that fuzzy stuff in your pocket!

[crispfin]

That is why Europe is, IMO, lost now. It has no cohesive narrative of its reasons for being, and Islam is providing one.

For myself, I just don't see Islam as the dominant factor you are seeing. I see Islam's profile rising in the eyes of a post Christian culture mainly due to Europe's stilted views on "tolerance" and "acceptance". However, a definate clash is coming in Europe between the hard black and white outlook of Islam and their relativism. We've seen rumblings so far, but there will be a clash. Many Muslim immigrants are not acclimating to European culture and society and they have no desire to do so. Europe, along with us here in America, simply can not or will not accept that their mindset is not and probably will not change. We see our ideals as the right ones (which I do not disagree with) and theirs as wrong. This goes both ways. There will be conflict. ALthough Europe might well be destroying itself and its culture through its embrace of relativism and hatred and rejection of its own culture. So I could very well see as you do an Islamic future for Europe but I do not see it now. It's kind of a wait and see. Only God knows.

[dolfan]

I don't think Europe will embrace Islam. I do think it will swallow Islam through force-feeding because it lacks the moral will to withstand it. Yes, there are rumblings. The murder of Theo Van Gogh is a case in point, as are the cartoons we know about so well. Meanwhile, fully 10% of France is Muslim, more than a doubling in merely 15 years, and the numbers are growing as is the militancy of the Muslims there. Europe as a whole is almost 10% Muslim. The encroachment of the Muslim culture is significant enough for the Archbishop of Canterbury to suggest that a parallel legal system based on sharia law be allowed in the UK for Muslims. While that may be indicative of a postmodern element of Anglican thought, it is a significant surrender of British culture without a drop of blood being spilled, even if it stalls in the short run, as is the so-called "Christian Ramadan".


We agree that Europe is stilted, and we agree that Europe is going to resist a Muslim 'takeover', for lack of a better word. I simply believe that it is ultimately going to be too little, too late, and that the fall of Europe to Islam is a fait accompli. They're dead, but they don't know it.